I’ve made a good male friend recently, and we get along really well. However, our last conversation has shown me that although he supposed shares similar values around human dignity and human rights, he has right-leaning tendencies that are difficult to navigate around. It’s easy to tell that it’s stuff that he has heard or seen on the internet.
For example, we had a long conversation about LGBTQIA+ in which he stated he’s all about rights and everyone having the right to live and love how they want, but he has an issue around the “plus” part. I gently pried some more, while still respectfully holding my own argument and stance, and it became clear that actually, it’s a weird mix of anti-trans sentiment mixed with a very defensive white-male complex.
The trans-rapist entering female bathrooms scenario came up; trans activism is okay, but “only if they do it well and safely and without negatively affecting others” (I reminded him of the history of activism and revolution, that to disrupt an unjust status quo means the movement will be ugly and unpalatable), implying trans = body dysmorphia and giving into them is giving into their mental illness (he framed it more gently in saying they must have psychological screenings and treatment. I argued that that’s exactly what trans activism is fighting for – the right to resources like psychiatric therapy and gender affirming care). At some point he spoke about the dangers of “cancel culture”. A few days before, he’d made a strange offhanded joke/comment about “blue-haired woke ladies” when we were joking about the world ending due to tech billionaires.
I was careful to refute everything I disagreed with to the best of my ability, and tried to get him to have perspective on the situation, but I walked away with the feeling that I am trying to explain colours to a colourblind individual.
I am interested in asking for advice because it doesn’t feel totally hopeless. It feels more like he has the same underlying values, but he becomes fixated on these misdirectional points that the media uses to obfuscate basic human rights activism with fearmongering fantasy scenarios. I was a more extreme political activist and had many heated verbal arguments in the past. I’m no longer interested in those exhauasting futile efforts that rarely went anywhere. In fact, I think that cancelling/severing approach to friendships is part of the problem of insularity. I want to really engage, especially with people who also want to engage in the conversation. I really want to hear from people who have had these conversations.
I had the following thoughts:
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These are not his real fears, but fears he has ingested by proxy (through the algorithm or whatever media) – so much of his wording feels lifted from the internet. How do you fight against al the subtle propaganda embedded in the algorithm?
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How do you convince them that the scenarios they are fixating on are not the real problem? That they’re fantasy problems that take away from the main important fight for basic human rights and dignity?
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How do you show them that this idea that this is not a resource-competition? The way he spoke made me feel strange, because he is acting as if trans activism will take something away from men and women, but really, it’s for the betterment of human rights all-inclusive.
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How do you show them that the behaviour of some “bad apples” should not tarnish the movement. Not every trans person is a representative of the movement; there are people who are mentally ill, there are rapists, there are thiefs, etc. Just like every other demographic.
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How do you change a person’s mind, when they seem receptive, albeit quite confident in their stance?
Comments
3 notes on this I thought worth mentioning.
Firstly, he is being used and manipulated. Culture war crap is being peddled by people with things to hide. Politicians and energy companies that want woke wars instead of people worrying about them literally destroying the planet.
https://atmos.earth/fossil-fuel-billionaires-are-bankrolling-the-anti-trans-movement
Cancel culture isn’t real, prolific paedophile Gary Glitter who was jailed for 16 years after sexually abusing at least 3 children, yet he still has has 3 quarters of million unique monthly listeners and his top song has been streamed over 122.7 million times on Spotify.
Trans people make up an estimated 0.5% of the population. picking a random comparator, psychopaths make up 1% of the population. The press are much less worried about literal psychopaths sharing the bathrooms? Not that I’m suggesting we demonise people with a diagnosed mental illness, I’m just making a point about the foolishness of it all.
you will not be able to change his mind, especially as a woman. don’t waste your time being friends with these types. I’ve tried as well – doesn’t work
He isn’t receptive to ideas, he’s receptive to your attention and is hoping to have sex with you down the line. Stop wasting your time. You are not a school to educate him.
I’m not here to reason with men or hold their hand to guide them down the path of the radical idea of basic human fucking decency. If a woman dyeing her hair blue is enough alone to categorise her into an undesirable faction…how long before he turns on you? This is not a “good male friend.” My “good male friends” argue and fight beside me against misogyny, racism, homophobia, transphobia and classism.
Throw the whole man out and start over.
You wouldn’t cook dinner with rotten meat.
I’d say you actually don’t have the same underlying values. It just looked that way on the surface at first.
Mask is coming off the more comfortable he feels.
A potential friend debating the value and agency of trans folks is a deal-breaker. For me at least.
There’s no real particular order in what I’m saying here, but here some seeds for ideas. If something of what I said isn’t clear or wish for an example let me know; or wonder how I’d refute a particular argument.
>I was a more extreme political activist and had many heated verbal arguments in the past. I’m no longer interested in those exhauasting futile efforts that rarely went anywhere.
>I had the following thoughts:
Not a direct answer to your questions, but given how you worded things I think you should watch this playlist. It’s about how bad-faith debate works like; it will probably explain some experiences of yours.
>I was careful to refute everything I disagreed with to the best of my ability, and tried to get him to have perspective on the situation, but I walked away with the feeling that I am trying to explain colours to a colourblind individual.
If he drops silent after a rebuttal, asking ‘does this make sense?’ may help query what he got caught up on. Also rephrase some things as questions.
>he’d made a strange offhanded joke/comment about “blue-haired woke ladies” when we were joking about the world ending due to tech billionaires
>How do you fight against al the subtle propaganda embedded in the algorithm?
Mention that the word ‘woke’ is a political dogwhistle used by politicians to divide us; the culture war exists to divide us.
For example, affordable healthcare, affordable internet, affordable electricity and reducing pollution are woke. Being against racism and slavery is woke; sex education is woke. Not just some shmuck off of the street said these things, the actual people who can actually make a difference said that they’re woke; given what exactly the politicians are vilifying, it sounds like woke things are good things.
>How do you fight against al the subtle propaganda embedded in the algorithm?
If he’s consuming youtube, pelt him with queer content (or literally anything that isn’t what he sees) to change their algo; but this hinges on if he actually engages with the videos you send him.
Strange Aeons investigates weird shit.
Melody Nosurname talks about games and gender.
Shenpai is funny video gamer.
>implying trans = body dysmorphia and giving into them is giving into their mental illness
Having a very clear line between gender and sex helps here.
Gender is how people, society reacts to biological sex, where a gender is a bag/collection of stereotypes, aesthetics, jobs, roles, personalities, hobbies, colors, hair styles, senses of fashion, shape, genitalia, etc.
For example soap for MΣП vs soap for (っ◔◡◔)っ ♥ women ♥. This is a fun video that goes over gendered products.
If they like computers/tech/programming/math, point out that ‘man’/’woman’ are polymorphically overloaded; where there are many many different definitions to the same words. A purpose of nonbinary gender is to be more concise about what stereotypes are implied.
Make them play the game: literally all men do/like/have/are _____; literally all women do/like/have/are _____. Are you able to find any answer that cannot be contradicted? Gonads: lost due to accident/cancer; are they not a wo/man?
Intersex: there are many things in the human body that are objectively sexed, but biology does not have to align.
‘we shouldnt ignore the binary’ the binary is a heuristic based off of gonads; and things don’t have to align. Appeal to absurdism: the universe is primarily a Hydrogen-Helium binary (98%); the periodic table is woke DEI for those minorities.
Transhumanism: as we advance in technology, as we master human and earth biology, every aspect about the human body will become a choice. We will slowly stop being beholden to the fundamentals of human nature.
>The trans-rapist entering female bathrooms
There are a few ways to approach this; but in my opinion walking over the nuance of what gender actually is, should be done first.
Pretending to be a trans person to sexually harass is convoluted; there’s no magical forcefield you have to trick. And it’s not like we’re not used to unisex bathrooms; what you have in your home, and many establishments.
With explicit examples of trans men who pass (see r/FTMFitness), ask them which bathroom that they should take.
(you could also tangentially mention the improved logistics of unisex; less unused units and less lines)
He’s comfortable sharing ideas that don’t pass the sniff test of human decency and you haven’t run away yet, so chances are he’ll show more of his true self.
The media he consumed were his choices. Yes, the almighty algorithm, but YouTube has been trying to get me to watch the most extreme version of ANYTHING for years (folk music: Nazis. History: also Nazis. Gaming: Women ruin everything. Art: I bought these five thousand items and they’re all crap. Crafts: here’s how to hack Etsy and make $$$. And so on.) and I choose not to watch any and hide the channels and over time, my recommendations got better.
He’s brainwashed himself and needs reprogramming, which you, as a single lay person cannot provide and should not attempt.
Stop being nice to him. Draw lines. When he tells you about potential trans imposters in bathroom counter with real people being attacked because they don’t perform gender right in the eyes of the bathroom police. Push back. And when he blows up at you, walk away from him snd hang out with kinder people.
Men (especially white men) hold all the privilege. The propaganda is shaped to make men feel like equality is a threat to that privilege.
You deep dive into them to expose their flawed roots. Follow them down the path of who benefits; it’s always men/the status quo. Don’t let him give bullshit or stop the conversation, make him expose the flaws of the logic himself.
Call it out bluntly. Anti-slavery, LGBTQ+ rights, gay marriage, women’s rights, the right to vote etc. “People said that about <on of those>”. All being against someone’s rights is doing is maintaining his privilege as top of the food chain.
Again, bluntly. “White men commit <literally all crimes but give specifics> at rate (% of that crime). By your logic we should punish you for other men’s actions, is that fair? (He’ll say no). Then why is it fair to do so for trans people. Again force the point, get him to expose his prejudice
You spend far more time and energy than they’re worth talking through each point in detail. And “where did you learn that/what caused you to form that opinion, what’s it based on?” questioning.
But ultimately you cannot make someone change their mind if they’re unwilling to.
Ok, I’m a social scientist and changing a persons view on a topic like trans rights is almost impossible. That is actually true for many contentious issues. it’s a classic ingroup outgroup dynamic. Simply put ingroup can do no wrong and if somebody from the ingroup does something bad than that is just a “black sheep” and not representative. The outgroup on the other hand can do nothing right and if an individual from the outgroup does something bad, it represents the outgroup.
For example, there was this school shooter recently who was trans and then wasn’t but Fox News called it “trans shooter did x” but almost all gun violence is committed by heterosexual cis men but Fox News will never say “Heterosexual cis man commits mass shooting. The 158th this year by heterosexual cis men”
The “othering” of trans people happens all over the internet. Every time a trans person does something bad or wins some sport competition. This stuff is made for your friend and he eats it up.
There is only one real way that significantly increases acceptance of for example trans people. Personal contact. In surveys this increased acceptance around 30% overall. So if you think that your transphobic friend is not completely gone, then take him to a trans event and have him interact with trans people in meaningful way. A long conversation for example. A trans friend would be even better.
Or you know, get yourself other friends…
Ok, so you are talking about ‘social change’ which is a tricky old beast.
Firslty, it sounds like you feel like he isn’t hardened which for me means I would probably stay gently in his sphere. I probably sit on the side that just isolating from people who you don’t agree with may be necessary in some cases but doesn’t result in social change. I think that this approach can lead to an increasingly hostile environment between different groups that is not playing out well politically for minorities or women.
So (where I have the capacity) I stay warm, playful and curious. Shame stops people listening and hardens their position. Don’t do it all at once, just playfully or lightly challenge in a simple sentence OR if it’s a focused conversation really try to understand what fundementally they are concerned about and then think about whehter you can validate the concern and explain your concern/find the common ground for the two of you that you can build from.
I recognise that is not how most people want to engage with this and totally understand why and let me be clear, when someone is strongly in this misogynist/homophobic/racist camp I just walk away because I don’t think research shows that I will have an impact. However, research on social change shows that trust is fundemental (that’s why studies show that you are more likely to convince people if you have relationship and if you are not seen as benefiting from the argument you are making which is why it’s particularly powerful when straight or cis people advocate for trans rights for example). So if I have the capacity, I try to gently challenge.
And if it feels too much at any point, you just say, I think this feels too much for me at the moment!
I’d have him research what we actually are (trans people). I myself said very similar things a long time ago, it was because I didn’t know what HRT and the experience actually was. I didn’t know it changed our whole body, making our skin softer, hair grow, and our mind function different. I was shocked I could actually be the woman I wanted to be.
I think transphobia is 45% ignorance, 45% propaganda, and sadly the other 10% of people actually hating even knowing what it is/religious fundamentalists. I don’t have recommendations but maybe have him watch some cool trans YouTubers or something, or even meet some cool trans folks.
Make sure you tell the trans ppl ahead of time tho what’s up, and if they’re willing to try and educate. I do this but it’s of course a lot to ask and I wouldn’t expect anyone to go through the emotional labor
Maybe you know this, but this sub is the absolute last place you are going to get reasonable insight into a question like this.
As you may realize from most of the responses already being “stop talking to him immediately”.
You sound like someone who cares very much about the rights and inherent dignity of persons.
You also sound like you are intensely careful about getting everything right, communicating with this guy in a perfect way. I have been that person, and it’s taken me so many years of therapy to see it as another manifestation of walking on eggshells.
He met you fairly recently and he’s putting up a front to see if he can hook up with you. Source: I’m old af.
Don’t you have better things to do?
I have had many of these conversations, as I grew up left wing in a very red state. That said, I have some disappointing news. For the most part, he is enjoying your attention and is probably not being entirely honest with you about how right wing his views are. The bigotry you are seeing now is the tip of the iceberg.
My best recommendation for you would be to consider this quote by Maya Angelou – “When people show you who they are, believe them.” You should volunteer your energy to advance the causes you care about in a more tangible way.
Don’t waste your time on this.
You’ve not been talking to my ex have you? (lives in a UK county ending -shire?)
Short answer is…you can’t. You might get them backpedalling and getting gaslighty so it sounds less worse than it was the first time you had the discussion. Even if the discussion makes you cry out of frustration because you know the stuff they think isn’t how it works in reality.
They live in a bubble unfortunately. They don’t get the nuances of the world.
These discussions often don’t work out very well, but if you want to give it a try anyway, the best three things I know of that work are:
He said “they must have psychological treatments and screening.” Fine. Does he have any idea what’s involved for people to transition? Has he ever read any first-person accounts from trans people? Has he ever talked with trans people, or watching videos they made talking about their experiences? Has he ever read anything by doctors who counsel people with gender dysmorphia? Has he looked for information on websites run by actual experts, like the Mayo Clinic? Or does everything he knows about it come from non-trans people, or anti-trans people, or blowhards on TV or podcasting who like to pretend they are experts on everything?
Ask him to think about something he likes or does, his religious views or his favorite fandom or sport or whatever. What would he think of someone who talked like an expert on the subject but had never read a single book, or listened to a single expert, or actually spoke to a single person, who was a member of that religion or fandom? When you listen to a podcaster talking about trans people or gay people, you’re listening to someone who doesn’t actually know anything about the subject. Why form your opinions from ignorance, when there’s such a huge wealth of actual information online?
This doesn’t always work. Once a friend of mine was going on about how there are much better ways to treat transgender people, and I asked, “You base that statement on your years of practice as a psychologist, I assume?” He never spoke to me again, ending a 40-year friendship.
Nearly anything has dangers in it. Back when they were wiring up America, people were afraid of electricity: it can kill you, it can cause house fires, it’s not safe. There were panicky articles in newspapers and editorials about how people shouldn’t trust electric wiring in their homes. What would you say to those people now? Would he be happier if there was no electricity?
When Semmelweis first came up with the ideas that doctors should wash their hands, people called that idiotic and mercilessly attacked him for it. They didn’t even bother to try it first, they just figured that telling them they needed to change was stupid and so rejected the idea outright. What would he say to those people now? Would he be happier if he went to the doctor and nobody there washed their hands?
Sure, things can go wrong. Cancel culture could go wrong, men could pretend to be trans to go into women’s bathrooms and do awful stuff, lots of things could happen. Is there any reason to believe that they actually are happening, or is it just fearmongering by people looking to make money by keeping an audience hooked and selling advertising?
Back in 2002, when the Supreme Court ruled in Lawrence v. Texas that laws banning private sexual activity between adults were unconstitutional, there were huge panic attacks on the Right. Rick Santorum, then a US Senator, said that it made everything legal, including sex with children and bestiality. It was the destruction of society forever. Well, it’s 23 years later, and society is still here. Fire and brimstone did not rain down from the sky. All that happened was that gay people got left alone by the police.
It happened again in 2015 when the Court ruled in Obergefell v. Hodges that banning gay marriage was unconstitutional. It was the end of the world, it was terrible, gay people were coming for your kids, be afraid! That’s been ten years ago. Not a single bad thing they predicted came true.
If your friend is old enough to remember any of that, remind him of it. They went on and on about all the bad stuff that COULD happen. None of it did. They were predicting doom and gloom because they wanted to keep their audience happy, or maybe because they were so afraid of change they would have been against inventing the wheel if they’d been alive at the time.
Ask him if he fell for it in 2015. If not, why is he falling for it now? Why let your ideas be determined for you by a bunch of spineless cowards who are afraid of their own shadows?
Freedom doesn’t really mean anything unless everybody has it. How much would your friend like it if someone said that men shouldn’t be allowed to be doctors, because we know that women were the healers in society for thousands of years before the rise of modern medicine? Or if someone said he shouldn’t be allowed to post online until he passes a government test to ensure his ideas meet with approval? Or if someone said that no TV shows or books or movies were allowed until after they were approved by the government to ensure that they met with ideological standards?
Maybe he doesn’t want to be a doctor, and maybe he doesn’t post online, and maybe he doesn’t watch a lot of movies, fine. But how much would he like it if he no longer had the choice?
Because when you say that people shouldn’t be allowed to transition, or whatever, what you’re saying is that you should get to make decisions for their lives. Why do you get to decide for them, instead of them deciding for you? Why should you get to curtail their freedom, instead of them curtailing yours?
It’s one thing if they’re a murderer, or something, but they aren’t. They aren’t hurting anyone. What’s so bad about leaving people alone as long as they don’t hurt anyone?
Ask him what he thinks is stopping cisgender male rapists from entering female bathrooms currently?
This one weird fear just makes absolutely no sense to me. Do they think there are genital police at the entrance of every women’s bathroom? Do they think a cisgender man wanting to enact violence on a woman is truly prevented from doing so by the magic powers of the ‘FEMALE’ sign on the door?
Good for you for trying to be gentle and moderate about this rather than shutting him out. That would only more deeply entrench him in these dangerous thought patterns, but it’s the option most people go for these days.
You are trying to convince a man that his opinion about women is wrong?
I admire the optimism, but [gestures broadly at 300 years of feminism].
I’m not super sure there’s a lot that could be said but these things immediately came to mind.
First of all.
>I was a more extreme political activist and had many heated verbal arguments in the past. I’m no longer interested in those exhauasting futile efforts that rarely went anywhere. In fact, I think that cancelling/severing approach to friendships is part of the problem of insularity.
That’s step 1. You’ll never get any ground having heated discussions. Once you’ve fired up an amygdala your efforts are, as you said, totally futile.
Also, hard are I that being quick to cut people off is problematic. We should also care for our mental health and have boundaries, and it’s understandable to not want to put effort in, but if there’s any hope to add an ally it’s not this way. So kudos to you for wanting to do the work.
3.& 5. I actually have a hot take on number 3. It is a resource competition. I think the bipartisan system is incredibly stupid but working with what we got, politicians only have a few key things that they will have the bandwidth to run on. Running on human rights issues that don’t affect the majority of the population they’re going to serve isn’t helpful. However, this doesn’t mean those are things that should be ignored! But you can ask him why he cares more about issues that affect a tiny part of the population than issues like access to clean water. Why does he care more about this than he does about the ever increasing gap between wages and inflation?
That last bit was eventually what broke my father. He watched Fox News all day every day. Literally screamed at me that he didn’t want to pay for prisoners to cut off their penises. And I just gave him a super calm “so what? How realistic are you that that’s actually going to happen?” He came around and admitted it was unrealistic and we talked briefly about fear mongering.
I’m way more optimistic than most commenters! I do think you can change people’s mind.
We lost contact, and saw each other again twenty years later. He then told me that conversation changed his life. He thought about it for years. He thought about it each time a racist family member said something racist. He changed. And one day, he went low contact with his family and completely changed his life.
My take on this:
yes, people change
you don’t have to “win” the conversation. In fact, you should not win the conversation, or they will feel humiliated. You just say what you have to say, leave it there. You don’t have the last word. You just let what you say slowly mature. It can take years, but it works.
don’t be too abstract. What works is human anecdotes, human examples. What you have been through. What your brother /cousin /best friend has been through. Stories about injustice, about happiness. Examples, anecdotes, anecdotes.
if you can, introduce them to real people (Trans, LGBT, blue haired woke girls, etc). It’s easy to hate from a distance. It’s way harder to hate Julia, a trans woman who makes a great chocolate cake and who gave you the recipe.
Keep fighting the good fight!
Old white guy here, I agree with all the people saying he is more interested in getting in your pants than anything else. That said, the line of argument that works for me, is “count numbers, compare numbers, shun anecdotes”. I would be pretty direct. “These people, telling you to worry about hypothetical rapes by trans people, has that ever happened? How often?” (No, and zero.) “And how does that COMPARE with, say, sexual assault by priests or politicians?”
He should learn that he’s being manipulated by fake moral panics peddled by people who do not actually care if they harm or hurt him, they have just found a way to collect clicks and dollars, and that’s all that matters.
Why be gentle? Babying a grown man is a waste of time. And if his feelings get hurt, then he’s not mature enough to have his beliefs be rejected and will just double down. Too many women bend over backwards being nice for no gain and then are bewildered when their gentle words have no impact. All you’re doing is just making it easier to ignore and dismiss you. If he flips and decides you’re a bitch, then you didn’t really lose a ‘friend’ of value anyway.
One strategy is to ask “where do you think that belief comes from,” prompting them to think about what their own influences are.
Your friend needs to be taught skepticism skills first and foremost. Those points of his don’t hold up to scrutiny but if your attempts to question them don’t inspire some internal skepticism on his part then it’s unlikely you’d be able to change his mind. For example in the bathroom subject, you could say “yeah, it’s already against the law to sexually harass someone in the bathroom whether you’re cis or trans. Why do you believe that trans people would be inherently more likely to do that than cis people to the degree that further precautions to prevent that law from being broken are required, especially given that the alternative is to deny a class of people a basic right required to exist in public spaces like airports or offices for significant periods or time?” That should inspire some reconsideration of how he views the topic which should identify how the issue is being deceptively framed to him through internal consideration, research, and conversation with others familiar with the subject. He’d find that the statistics on trans people perpetuating sexual misconduct are not higher than the cis population and are in fact far more likely to be victims of sexual violence and harassment than cis people in those spaces. That should lead to him changing his mind and considering why those he trusts for information (his right wing sources) steered him so wrongly, ultimately leading to seeing them as bad sources for information in general and seeking out new ones.
That happened to me when I was in my 20s, but it only worked because I value skeptical pursuit of truth over holding the worldview I did at the time (evangelical Christianity) and I was eventually able to see the issues with it. Of course, I’m still capable of bias and have blind spots, but I’m dedicated to eliminating or reducing them when I discover them and try to avoid common credulity pitfalls. Your friend should do the same if he wants to be a rational actor in the world as all of us should. So, before convincing him the right wing is wrong can really work, you may need to convince him that it’s better to find and hold onto the truth wherever that search leads him. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.
So, you may have some philosophy conversations in your future.
I’ve never seen a woman meaningfully change a man’s mind on social issues. I used to love to argue with people because I thought I could change their mind but I’ve given up after a lot of failed attempts. Most men will view the argument as entertainment, they aren’t looking to learn from a woman even if they say they are.
I’ve literally spent hours deconstructing an argument into component parts, getting a man to agree that each one makes sense and that each step logically follows the previous one. After hours they’ll say they have no reason to disagree with me, but still “feel” like I’m wrong. These are academic men that recognize the validity of scientific research and statistics, can easily accept that they aren’t experts in other fields, and will usually defer to experts. But they’ll throw all those beliefs away to repeat some ill-informed half-baked “feeling”. Their feelings are deeply entrenched in decades-long propaganda masquerading as “common sense”. They think they don’t have to examine these feelings because they think everyone feels them, and YOU’RE the weird one for disagreeing. You can’t argue that away (but maybe a man could).
I think your guy is also showing way more red flags right now than you give him credit for. I’ve had these frustrating arguments that go nowhere with men that are much more liberal than him.
In my experience, change has to come within. He will only come around if he notices the incongruity of his world view and starts to question in.
You could try introducing him to people who don’t fit the stereotypes he’s been feed and see if he can empathize with them and re-examine his beliefs. If he can’t, you know what they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.
I don’t waste my time trying to fix broken male minds, personally (not anymore, anyway!)
You don’t NEED to convince anyone that their political and ideological views are incorrect. You don’t NEED to befriend bigots. Move on.
Since I haven’t seen it mentioned here, the broader picture offers more intersectionallity and gets rid of all the transphobic rhetoric in one go: Anti-trans legislation and policy is racist and misogynistic even before we add Trans folk to the debate with their name on it. Minority women are/have been for a while the primary target within sports when gender is questioned, not for any scientific reason but because they often dont fit or conform to societal beauty standards, and is one of those highly racist “it can’t be racist because it’s not about color” things. Similarly, as seen with recent, invasive, gender questioning in restrooms, women who dont adhere to societal beauty standards, adding a de facto punishment, even for straight, cis gendered women who don’t “pass” as such. If he can’t see this as a deceptively horrible way to punish anyone that doesn’t fit their idea of “straight and white” then they probably have those goals. Also, Trans people are people and deserve their damn rights, should go without saying.
During a conversation with a friend recently around trans folk she said they’re only x% of the population and I gently said what percentage of the population was she comfortable with denying basic human rights? Then it was outrage over trans women in sports. It wasn’t “fair”. My response was “life isn’t fair” and imo, sports are given an oversized importance in people’s lives but that’s just my opinion. She shut up about the whole thing.
I mean this kindly, are you 22 or something? You’re putting so much time and effort into this friendship, what do you hope to get out of it? Doesn’t seem worth it to me
Look up Daryl Davis TED talk. Learn the Socratic Method. Watch some of Anthony Magnabosco videos that have him doing Street Epistemology.
Determine how much emotional labor you want to put into this project.
You can change people, but it takes time and effort.
>he had a problem with the plus
>trans
He knows what the T has always stood for that’s been there much longer than the IA+?
I’m not really even sure how to refute something like that, except maybe to look up the facts and the statistics on a reliable source to show him. And if that doesn’t work, the best thing you can do is end the friendship and refuse to socialize with him in any capacity. Because socially isolating them and making sure they never get any positive attention for their messed up views is going to be our best weapon against people like them.
You are working real hard to raise someone else’s son and to treat someone else’s patient.
It sucks when someone you love has right wing ideas. You can’t fix it. Logic isn’t the reason people believe and logic won’t be the reason they stop.
I mean it can be fun to debate with people with opposing views, but you don’t seem to be having fun. You seem distressed about his views.
It’s not your job to teach people to be decent or to teach them critical thinking skills. If you appreciate his friendship then set boundaries to avoid this topic. If you can’t appreciate it, knowing his views on the subject, then end it. Also, be aware he’s likely much more right-wing than he’s letting on.
Trans rights is the newest most extreme hot topic for Conservatives so he probably feels safe expressing it while other views are outdated and frowned upon so he is keeping them hidden.
If you absolutely feel like debating him is the direction you want to go, tell him that men as a whole are statistically the ones responsible for violent crime so you think all men should be banned from public restrooms. He should think that’s fair since he’s so worried about bathroom crime.
Im very left and live in a very red state. I hate to say this, but you’re not going to change his mind on anything. You don’t need to fix him, and honestly, I hate to say this too, but he’s not your friend.
I’m autistic, but, if there’s anything that I know about human beings, it’s that they really hate being shown how stupid their opinions are. Young men are especially pointlessly prideful.
Still, if you insist on giving this a go, good luck to you.
I’m confused about why you don’t believe that the views he’s expressing are his actual views? People can be smart and funny and attractive and also politically right wing. Everything you’re saying here makes him sound like a run of the mill conservative man.
“I reminded him of the history of activism and revolution, that to disrupt an unjust status quo means the movement will be ugly and unpalatable”.
Which ISN’T happening. You kind of played into a fear of his when as far as I know trans people are just trying to exist not cause a revolution do ugly things.
It’s the fearmongers who are creating the ugliness. Like this terrible ad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7thOvSvC4E
What you need to do is ask him question about why he believes these things and has he ever fact checked them to see if they are true.
Fwiw, I have a lot of trans and non-binary friends, many of which stay in my home on a fairly regular basis for visits.
They are the most gentle and quiet of my friends. In absolutely no reality are they predatory, aggressive, etc. in the manner straight, white, Christian men have always been.
He’s trying to push a narrative that rewards men for being protectors against someone else (in this case transfolk) when cisgender men are very often the attacker statistically speaking – per the DOJ 99% of rape and sexual crimes are done by cisgender men. Per the Mother Jones database tracking public mass shootings found that of 141 incidents since 1982, 134 were carried out by cisgender men.
Your friend has no only embraced a false narrative, he’s embraced the “not all men” bullshit, when it is indeed OVERWHELMINGLY MEN.
I wish you good luck on what is likely to be a very long-term project, but I myself am done with coddling bigots.
Most of the time, change happens slowly, and changing someone’s mind is less about facts and data than it is about empathy and consistency. The best thing you can do is live according to your values and be a good friend. The example you set with your attitude and actions is more impactful than any argument you can make.
He didn’t arrive at his conclusions through logic and reason. He won’t be pursued to change through it either. He was probably convinced by someone presenting a truth, followed by leading questions that led to conspiracy and propaganda that made him feel in charge of those ideas. It’s just Hannity’s formula during the Bush era, perfected. People utilizing the method seek out people who feel disenfranchised and disadvantaged while also feeling like they should be entitled to a more successful position, usually young males.
For this, I love Crowder’s “Change My Mind” segments as an example aimed at proving slanted viewpoints appear like a valid approach to debate and understanding, when, in fact, it is an unfair debate tactic that puts the majority of the burden of proof on the passersby. Crowder gets to frame the topic and wording, usually in a provocative way that sets up the “guest” to be on the defensive, while he sits in a chair, with notes and prep. The worst part of all, though, is that, instead of being ideas shared on equal footing, the whole thing is setup to put the burden of proof and disproof strictly on the unprepared and defensive passerby. If you don’t understand debate, it usually looks like he “owned the libs.” This stuff serves to build and reinforce skewed and unrealistic ideologies.
As time goes on, and I learn more about the far right movement (which is like 35% of republicans ?!), the more I think that the belief systems involved may either be a mental illness or targeting one. Get him centered way from those kinds of politics and into actual burden of proof situations, whereby he has to provide trusted evidence (preferably primary sourcing) to back his claims. He needs to feel in charge of his recovery.
>A few days before, he’d made a strange offhanded joke/comment about “blue-haired woke ladies” when we were joking about the world ending due to tech billionaires.
Eff this guy. Sorry. He sounds like someone who has fallen down the right wing rabbit hole.
“Don’t wrestle a pig, you get covered in shit and the pig likes it”.
This aint a good male friend, and you wont be able to change his mind.
This reminds me of my QAnon Trump father, who also says he believes in lqbtq+ rights but also thinks that michelle obama is secretely a man. He says he believes in gender equality but is against abortions.
These sort of people want to tell themselves they have the good morality without wanting the sorts of policies that would back it up. “I believe women are equal” without supporting any policies thatd support equality. Dont want LGBTQ awareness in classrooms (because itll “convert” their children) but have no problem with children being indoctrinated in church by themselves–Japan has made it child abuse to take children to religious activities. I think if a religion is worth following, then it shouldnt require the indoctrination of children.
This friend of yours has lip service morality, and is lying about his beliefs. Hes not fixating about the wrong things, those are his beliefs.
This was exhausting to read after the first paragraph. Aren’t we tired of this yet?
Simple solution: stop entertaining these people’s bigoted viewpoints. Just stop. Stop trying to find a way to justify your continued engagement with him. He has shown you exactly who he is, now you show the world who you are.