I’ve seen in couple posts and comments here indicating that a fair percentage of us liberals don’t necessarily agree with stricter gun policies, and I’m curious why.
For perspective, I’m a substitute teacher. Every day I think about school shootings. I get to a new class every morning, and every one keeps a magnet in the door, which makes me incredibly sad. It lets teachers keep the door locked with the magnet in the way of it closing, so that if there’s a shooting, they can easily remove the magnet without needing to take the extra minute to step into the hallway and mess with the lock.
I completely understand that there are responsible gun owners, and those people don’t want to lose their guns, but it’s hard for me to understand why we’re not all screaming from the rooftops that we have to do something to stop the school violence.
Comments
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
I’ve seen in couple posts and comments here indicating that a fair percentage of us liberals don’t necessarily agree with stricter gun policies, and I’m curious why.
For perspective, I’m a substitute teacher. Every day I think about school shootings. I get to a new class every morning, and every one keeps a magnet in the door, which makes me incredibly sad. It lets teachers keep the door locked with the magnet in the way of it closing, so that if there’s a shooting, they can easily remove the magnet without needing to take the extra minute to step into the hallway and mess with the lock.
I completely understand that there are responsible gun owners, and those people don’t want to lose their guns, but it’s hard for me to understand why we’re not all screaming from the rooftops that we have to do something to stop the school violence.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
I’m a former teacher and used to live in a neighborhood where I’d hear gunshots pretty regularly. It is my opinion that the problems that we face regarding gun violence, these being school shootings; accidental deaths by minors getting ahold of weapons; inner city gun violence; are rooted in far larger reaching societal issues. And given the proliferation of guns throughout the country, it is probably more straightforward to address the larger social issues, than trying to apprehend every firearm out there (speaking in absolutes here for the sake of simplicity). Issues of gun violence where gun restrictions are more sensible are more of the type related to domestic violence and crimes of passion, which we can address without increasing restrictions on firearms.
To address your example more specifically, every time I read about school shootings, it seems like there was a bunch of signs indicating that the given individual had issues and was becoming a dangerous individual. Police typically are reactive and not proactive, and additionally, schools themselves are too overworked to address these things before they escalate. So if we want to stop school shootings, again, it is probably more straightforward to have dedicated response teams, more investment in school counseling, and so on, then the gargantuan and politically-suicidal move of trying to lock down every gun that’s already out there.
Gun control is political suicide right now and probably will be so for a long time. We can address gun violence without every mentioning guns, and so we should do that, rather than give republicans an easy win.
To borrow a talking point from the right, this is a mental health issue.
To borrow a talking point from the left, healthcare should be free.
Well, I do think the deterrence and defense against dictatorship thing is valid.
To speak on behalf of my liberal friends who have came around on the gun control issue:
I simply oppose all gun control, my interpretation of the constitution is that it doesn’t permit gun control. Additionally I consider guns to be very important for self defense, and self defense to be a pretty core right
Criminal shooting incidents are bad and I’m all for doing things like increased law enforcement, improving economic circumstances, improving education, expanding mental health, etc to try and reduce gun crime. But taking away guns is just totally unacceptable to me
I think its a losing issue. Philosophically, I think most people should be able to get like a hunting rifle and go hunting. I don’t think people need ar’s and stuff, but if we deplatform gun control, the hunting population that cry about liberals wanting to ban guns and hunting, so they feel that the less worse compromise is to vote for republicans who gut conservation wouldn’t have a leg to stand on
Apparently, it’s a sticking point for enough voters that we’re losing elections. If we’re losing elections, we’re not going to implement the policy anyway. Why it’s so damn important to be able to shoot an unlimited amount of ammo within a few seconds with minimal effort is beyond me. But that’s the country we live in. Damn the kids, pass the ammo. So, I guess no, we shouldn’t keep working towards this, and we should just sigh whenever these schools get shot up. It’s defeatist, but…well, there’s a lot to feel defeated about lately.
I don’t support bans or restrictions on firearms.
I support bans or restrictions on people who pose a danger or threat to themselves or others.
I support “control” of who can get their hands on any gun, not what kind of gun they get.
And a lot of that means dealing with red flag laws, domestic violence, criminal history, mental health and social structures to help those in need, etc. Fewer people will act out of desperation and depression, if you are people are desperate and depressed.
We will not be able to stop all violent people from acting violently, but we can absolutely mitigate some of it.
All that being said, if you aren’t a danger to yourself or others, you should be able to buy and own and use whatever gun you want. Especially if you have licensing or training or can otherwise demonstrate you are a safe and responsible owner.
While I do want more gun control, I am far more interested in honest enforcement of the ones we have.
Also, can we legalize digital databases for gun studies? The fact that the ATF is prohibited by law from maintaining a searchable digital database of gun transactions is so f*cking barbaric, it gives cigarette companies a run for their transparently evil acts.
>Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary
-Karl Marx
I don’t oppose more gun control, I just believe that Democrats are prioritizing the wrong laws. I staunchly disagree with any “assault weapons” ban, or magazine limits, or silencer NFA requirements as being effective or constitutional. I support safe storage laws, and training requirements (freely offered by the state)
Because gun control, aside from background checks, does fuck all to actually stop the problem.
Nearly every bit of gun control legislation that’s been proposed or enacted only affects those who choose to obey the law. And those people aren’t the problem.
In general, things like more severe sentences for crimes that are committed with guns are a good thing. We already have those on the books. And murder is extremely illegal. Tough to make it illegal-er (not a word, but hey).
However, the scum that shoot up schools are not bothered by these laws, because almost all of them plan to commit suicide in the process. If someone is seeking death, things like prison sentences are no longer a concern, nor are any potential consequences to their actions.
If someone is willing to die in the process of murdering a person, it’s next to impossible to stop them when you don’t know the place or the time. However, there’s been warning signs beforehand in every single case that were ignored or brushed under the rug. And they all have one thing in common – they were not right in the head in one fashion or another.
The underlying issue is that there’s more guns in American than there are human beings in America. The only way to get those out of the hands of people is a complete and total ban on civilian owned firearms, which would literally start a civil war. Because if the government says they’re taking your guns away for your own safety, most people are going to – very reasonably – suspect that it’s a pretext to a dictatorship, as has been the case where it happened historically.
And aside from that, the second amendment of the constitution protects the right for civilians to own firearms. Trying to repeal it would cause the same previously mentioned civil war.
If guns can’t be removed en masse, we have to attack it from the mental health care angle. Americans have very little empathy for their fellow human beings though, and don’t want to pay more taxes to handle the problem. A thousand kids being murdered in a day can’t change that, so I don’t know what else possibly could.
It’s a very rock and a hard place issue, but not without hope. We just have to get people to support mental health and spend the money to address it. It starts with electing politicians who are willing to make that happen. Apparently that’s not a priority though.
Guns are an important tool and equalizer for self defense. A trained woman with a stick is more likely to lose to a trained man with a stick. A trained woman with a gun is equal to a trained man with a gun. Guns provide equality to those outmatched physically or outnumbered and don’t have the luxury of being able to rely on police 24/7
The number of US serious assaults, homicides and similar that do not involve a gun at all, exceeds that of all Europe. Like even if you don’t consider any cases where a gun was involved, the U.S. is more violent than Europe. Thinking that self defense is not necessary comes from privilege
For the 10,000 or so gun homicides by criminals, there are 60k+ cases of self defense with a gun. Guns are not inherently evil and meant to kill. That’s just a peripheral fact. Guns do save a lot of people from serious violence. I can post a ton of links to current news articles each describing how someone justifiably used a gun to save themselves from serious violence if you’re interested
The issue with most of the gun laws being proposed currently by politicians is that they don’t actually reduce criminality and they instead disproportionately disenfranchise people from lawfully being able to have and use them for self defense. We can talk about specific laws if you’d like – whether assault weapon bans, licensing, red flag laws, etc. Just let me know which law specifically and I’ll describe in detail how they don’t really work against crime and simply prevent people from being able to defend themselves
OP you are why school shootings happen. You are contributing to fear mongering over school shootings which inspire people to commit those acts of violence. It’s why it’s baked into our culture.
More kids will die in a single year from car wrecks than the amount of minors murdered at a school in the past 30-60 years.
Be more scared of bad drivers than school shooters.
Look at who’s president right now, do you really want gun control with him in charge?
The same reason creating more laws around vehicle safety and how to reduce vehicle fatalities in the United States does not address the issues brought on by the way our culture lives around cars and the kinds of cars we drive.
This is not apples to apples, but I just want to point out the issue is culture on both ends.
Your chances of dying in a school shooting are lower than being a victim of violence by illegal immigrants
I don’t personally belive it will do anything other than drive people away. It’s possible it will lower suicide rates I suppose but tbh I’m not sure I care about that. Most actual gun violence isn’t random and is done by actual criminals who will still have guns.
With an ongoing fascist take-over of the US by criminals and racists, the last thing we need is to disarm the sane population.
Gun control doesn’t disarm criminals and it doesn’t disarm wannabe Nazis or other Republican bigots.
Until we can disarm the Nazis, the cops, and the Republican Party, gun control might be suicide for sane America.
I’m of two minds about it. If I could press a button and magically introduce strict gun control, I would. We already have a surplus of civilian owned guns here and I don’t see much of a drawback to restricting new sales by a lot. Buyback programs would also be a great way for struggling Americans to get some instant cash.
But the more pragmatic side of my brain tells me that the entire sphere of policy is a waste of political capital and that we might do well to accept that Americans will never give up their guns. It’s part of our culture as much as college sports or 4th of July cookouts.
In addition to that, I support gun control on its own merits, primarily as a tool for mitigating domestic violence and reducing suicides. I’m not entirely convinced of its ability to prevent mass shootings. There’s that stat that always goes around, about how many shooters got their guns legally, but that’s literally just because they could and it was easier/cheaper. With real gun control the illegal market would boom and it would be much easier for a wannabe mass murderer to get what they want that way.
But more importantly, the reason it’s a waste of capital is that it’s the best possible policy for convincing ordinary Americans that the government is out to get them. It would seriously harm public trust long term for whichever party did it, which would have to be Dems.
People understand that idea perfectly well when it comes to left-wing policies but it applies most of all to guns. The attempt isn’t worth pissing that many people off.
I believe that as a practical matter there are too many guns out there to claw them back. In rural areas guns are a part of the culture, and in some ways practical and necessary. In one city near me, it is municipal code that every homeowner owns a gun. We are a big country, so one policy for all 50 states is probably not gonna fit very well.
I am all for more restrictions- I teach on a concealed carry college campus, and have to assume that many of my students are packing. It’s honestly a losing issue for the time being.
Kids who shoot up schools are bullied kids- that’s the root problem of school shootings. If they have access, that’s in their parents to a large degree- my state has started prosecuting the parents. We’ll see how that goes…
Because rationally most gun control is bad policy and on top of that it frequently fails to comport with constitutional constraints.
>I’m a substitute teacher. Every day I think about school shootings.
Don’t think about them. They are over reported.
https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/08/27/640323347/the-school-shootings-that-werent
There are everyday risks you go through that you would consider mundane that are orders of magnitude more likely to result in your death like driving. It should not weigh heavy on your mind.
>but it’s hard for me to understand why we’re not all screaming from the rooftops that we have to do something to stop the school violence.
Because schools are exceptionally safe. The odds of kids being murdered in them is extremely low. And because it is such a rare occurrence you can’t keep people perpetually in fear about the issue.
For more examples of why I oppose gun control. The fact that the assault weapons ban is still the go to policy for gun control advocates. Despite the fact that we already knew in the early 00s that it doesn’t have the capacity to save a statistically measurable number of lives.
From the DOJ review of the federal assault weapons ban.
>>the ban’s effects on gun violence are likely to be small at
best and perhaps too small for reliable measurement. AWs were rarely used in
gun crimes even before the ban. LCMs are involved in a more substantial share
of gun crimes, but it is not clear how often the outcomes of gun attacks depend on
the ability of offenders to fire more than ten shots (the current magazine capacity
limit) without reloading.
https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/204431.pdf
There is no reason that this should still be a major political fight in this country.
The worker should not be disarmed. Gun control also has a long and racist history in this country.
We are also at a point of no return at this point with there being more guns then people you can’t remove guns from circulation effectively and barring the sale of new ones doesn’t help when we have so many and they aren’t hard to keep working.
Our method of legislation on gun control is also ineffective using broad definitions that make it difficult to understand what is and isn’t allowed and a lot of grey area.
We would be better served pushing safe storage, training and monitoring laws then gun bans.
Part of me thinks control will only do so much. I think if you really want to try to get at the root we need more accountability laws around guns. If you sold someone a gun privately without any due diligence and they use it in a crime, you should face repercussions.
It’s no different than, say, a kid takes their parents car and hurts someone. The owner is on the hook.
Same thing for things like kids taking parents guns or parents buying kids guns who should not have them. For example:
Implement some accountability measures and maybe a safe storage law. That could work to decrease the number of shootings.
I’m not opposed it to it, but I don’t think gun control has been effective in the United States.
If you’re an adult and of sound mind you should be able to have a machine gun shipped to your door
Mass shootings account for a relatively small amount of gun violence, but that’s all we seem to be arguing about.
Suicides are a much bigger cause of death than mass shootings.
I think the cause of all of this, mass shootings, gang shootings, suicide…is people feeling like they have no future, no options.
Fight the disease, not the symptoms.
Simply put: The right to bear arms shall not be infringed.
The Supreme Court had identified every term in the 2A during the heller vs dc decision if you wish to look it up.
So the current law forbids any gun control that doesn’t have a similar law on the books dating back to the founding era (1830 and prior) as affirmed in Bruen vs NY
So that’s the law and and gun control that doesn’t fall in line with it is unconstitutional and requires an amendment repealing the 2A
-Self defense is an innate right
the Supreme Court has ruled that the police (which is a government entity) has no obligation to protect its citizens. The job of police is to investigate crimes and enforce the law.
without guns the weak are powerless against those that want to hurt them
sometimes self defense is required against government entities (such as police). When one side has a monopoly on power tyranny will always be the result.
How to prevent school shootings? Schools are a “soft” target. “No guns allowed!” Obviously isn’t working.
Everything else we value is protected with firearms. We protect our president with guns. We protect our monetary institutions with guns. We enforce our laws with guns.
But we protect our children with signs?