It seems like the book is mainly about parents who are inept, not actively malicious like mine was. I couldn’t relate to the anecdotes because my mom was so much worse than any of the stories in there.
It seems like the book is mainly about parents who are inept, not actively malicious like mine was. I couldn’t relate to the anecdotes because my mom was so much worse than any of the stories in there.
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You will find that a lot of material assumes incompetence over malice. Even some therapists aren’t ready to accept that a parent can be intentionally destructive.
Yup! It unfortunately didn’t resonate for me and only reaffirmed how bad my Nparents really were
Yeah, I feel like Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents is a kind of “gateway drug” into thinking more critically about your upbringing? It felt like it was aimed at people who are coming to grips with the fact that their parents are imperfect, not necessarily for people who are well aware of how abusive their parents are.
The Sociopath Next Door might be worth checking out. Not a diagnosis, of course, I just felt the book spoke a bit more to the malicious side of things, like you mentioned.
I hope you find a better book 💛
The Narcissistic Family System: Diagnosis and Treatment, by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman
and Robert M. Pressman was a good fit. It explained not just the behavior, but the kind of family cult Nparents create to meet their needs.
There are a lot of people who will say “oh, my parents were mean too”, or “You have to forgive them, they’re your only family.” That book is probably written for those people.
I didn’t finish it and keep meaning to get back into it, but you have a very valid point. My mom might have been inept (she died in 2010 and I still can’t make up my mind about how actively malicious she truly was), but my dad was definitely malicious. They were both emotionally immature, but it manifested itself in a different way than the vignettes that I read in the book did.
Another challenge I run into with a lot of books is that they run off of the assumption that the toxic parents are alive and potentially still causing havoc. Mine have been gone for quite some time now, so it’s like I am cleaning up after a natural disaster has passed.
Didn’t finish and skipped parts. I remember being very disappointed with the lack of depth.
ACOEIP isn’t the all encompassing book that many make it out to be. It’s a helpful start for some people, but I think that people too often lump toxic parents into one label and call it a day, when parental toxicity/dysfunction is more of a spectrum of severity that can be pretty fluid or fixed. Plus, emotional immaturity is pretty common for narcissists but narcissism isn’t necessarily common for all emotionally immature parents, so the book will not be a truly helpful resource for adult children of narcissists. So, to your point, no: that book isn’t enough/doesn’t scratch the surface for parents who have narcissistic traits, are malicious, are full blown narcissists, etc.
You seem like you have a solid grip/understanding of your parents, which is so important and huge! Good on you, and I’m so sorry you’ve had to.
You may therefore not need this… But, if you’re interested, Jerry Wise on YouTube has some good videos on explaining the difference between emotional immaturity and narcissism in family systems/parents. You’ll likely be an expert in this already lol, but if you’re looking for some validation of your experience, I found it helpful. I used to obsess about whether my mother was a narcissist or emotionally immature. I felt like I needed to legitimize my experience with a diagnosis. Spoiler alert: she’s emotionally immature, sure but more important: she is narcissistic and will never get diagnosed with anything lol.
You know your reality better than anyone ❤️. If books are your thing, and you’re limited or no contact with them, something by Dr. Sherrie Campbell, for example, may be more validating and helpful. She doesn’t sugar coat and doesn’t fall back on calling things emotional immaturity when it’s actually abuse.
Edited for grammar
It has it’s place, but I can completely understand when people don’t relate to it – narcissism presents in different ways. My sister is the evil type who actively makes you miserable, as Dr. Ramani describes. My mom is likely a covert narcissist, but all she gets from her behaviors is maintaining her reality. My sister got my mom to buy her a house and has received more than her share of my dad’s estate with her maniuplation, my mom lets me know I’m awful for failing to appreciate the opportunities we have to make my sister’s life easier, and since it bothers me so much to let my sister have more money, I’m greedy, a gold digger, have no idea what family is, etc.
I’m sorry your mom is the evil type of NParent.
Yeah, having sadistic parents puts that book in perspective. The way I handle it is to take it as the base understanding of disfuncional families.
My biggest takeaway from that book was that I was right to go no contact, there is no hope for that woman.
The book helped me understand my relationship with my mom, because while she has n tendencies, her day to day behaviours/actions can be put under the umbrella of “emotionally immature”. She she crosses certain lines, I would categorize it under narcissism. Now downright malicious? Maybe once in a blue moon, especially if she’s feeling petty and aggrieved. I wouldn’t categorize some deliberately and constantly causing harm as narcissistic. You might want to look at People of the Lie for descriptions of people who were almost sociopathic in how they dealt with their children and other loved ones.
One time, my dad threatened to kill me because I didn’t hear my brother ring the doorbell so I didn’t open the door for him. My dad was also home and brother was outside waiting for like 5 minutes tops.
Not sure “emotionally immature” really covers it.
I listened to an interview with the author and in her telling she was dealing with many people in her practice who had no idea that a relationship with a parent could be damaging, or was the source of their stress, or that they had a choice in setting healthy boundaries around the parents behavior. She choose to use emotionally immature instead of actually calling out say narcissistic or borderline personality disorder to soften the concept and make it easier for people to conceptualize and accept without reacting to loaded labels. Agree that it may be weak sauce for those that have already IDd their Nparent. I do appreciate though, having someone publicly normalizing the concept that children who cut off a shiite parent are in fact doing the right thing for themselves for 100% valid reasons.
I think the book is pretty relatable to me personally but I’m taking forever to read it because I live with my dad and it just makes me feel depressed/angry
Oh yeah, that book is not for those of us who got severe, life ruining trauma during childhood. There’s different books for us. Like The Body Keeps The Score, and Cptsd Thriving instead of Surviving. They are triggering as hell for me, be warned.
Agree totally. That book feels like a baby step on the journey and I didn’t connect with it.
I HIGHLY recommend “Complex PTSD: From Surviving To Thriving” by Pete Walker (who I was recommended to me by this sub 🙏). This book changed me in deep ways. Its very validating of the wide range of experiences children of Ns have while focusing on healing, moving forward and developing a sense of self.
I found it too simple tbh. Many root causes of parental behaviour were not explored.
My mother for three years straight forced me to be a live-in nurse for her, getting her things (which sometimes took 2+ hours to do standing up with fibromyalgia pain throughout) and her playing loud movies at night and making me do stuff so late I had less than two hours of sleep each night, if that.
Also told me straight up to my face, “I’m feeling like 💩, so I can treat you like 💩 and that makes it okay.” Couldn’t escape because she financially screwed me over, and knew that my Trumper father wouldn’t help since I’m transgender.
(There’s much more they did, but I think the above makes my point. lol)
Thankfully those two devils in human skin are dead, but I gave up on reading that book due to how abusive my parents were.
I agree, there was some useful material but overall what the book relates doesn’t compare to what I went through.
Yea the way my therapist has had to have me pause tellin stuff in therapy lets me know it’s probably not going to be in some run-of-the-mill self help book…that being said it’s a good accessible read with valid, relevant info so I truly can’t knock it.
yes my aunt recommended it to me and it was generally comprehensive, but my parents have done far past what the book provides and its particularly exclusive and vicious what they did/said to me. i was even thinking if i wrote a book on the compilations of what happened to me people would call it simply a book of traumas
I remember feeling the rage bubble up in my chest when the book basically said; were not going to blame or hold them accountable because “nobody wants to be a narcissist”.
That’s so dismissive of the actual damage and suffering it caused ,no matter if it was just incompetence or conscious abuse. It’s unacceptable and being angry is part of the healing process. But the book basically skips that and goes straight to letting them go without conseqences and fixing yourself instead.
It’s like the Therapist can’t grasp the severity of what she’s actually talking about and protecting the abusers.
Yep i did
Thanks for the heads up on the book. But if I saw that title I would probably not read it since my mom is much more than just immature. In fact thats probably why I find most horror movies so lame, because none of them really add up to her. I love you friend, I love you all. I’m sorry you, I, and the others had to deal with this shit. I’m just sorry.
This is how I felt in several group therapy sessions, especially DBT. The example scenarios always assumed that the other person doesn’t automatically: Yell, storm out of the area, threaten to off you/others/self, or hit you with brooms and shoes.
Not to diminish what Christina went through…but when I read/watched Mommie Dearest, I was like, that’s it? that’s all she did to her? pft
I’m sorry for what you went through. I cannot relate to your question, as this book fit my parents perfectly, and it explained why this manner of abuse and neglect was so malicious. Although it was frustrating that there was no direct use of the word ‘narcissism.’
That is good to know. I spent my whole childhood trying to tell people about the abuse at home, and at the hands of other adults, and no one believed me. Not willing to read a book whose author wouldn’t believe me, either.
Yep. I quit after I read for the millionth of time “they don’t know and they are not at fault because they where raised that way” or anything along the lines of “don’t blame the adult for their adult decision and actions they where raised badly :(“
Boo fucking hop what an absolute shit excuse.
My mother and my father are the most vile disgusting human beings on earth and i said it many times : I hate no one and will hate no one more than the people who raised me.
You can’t chalk everything up to “THEY JUST DONT KNOW ANY BETTER” when someone is above the age of 20.
Absolutely infantalizing grown people’s abusive and disgusting behavior. The book literally points to these people acting like kids so we need to have compassion and understanding and treat them as such.
DOES ANYONE HAVE A SLIGHTS FUCKING IDEA, how much time and energy I’ve spent raising my own fucking degenerate mother because she is so mentally stunted and narcissistic that she acts like a 15 year old at the age of 54.
I could not give myself that shit and I would’ve bought the book I would’ve lit it on fire. Pure victim mentality and infantilization of toxic abusive narcissistic people.
Yeah the behavior in that book is so mild compared to what I dealt with.
I’m so glad you posted this. I was considering reading that book. My Nmom was so malicious in pretty much everything she did. I probably would have pissed at reading a book claiming she was just inept. She was was highly capable and a master manipulator. Nothing she did was inept.
I love the book personally, because my mother isn’t a full out sociopath and I think some people here on this sub forget that some people parents aren’t psychotic.
“Understanding the Borderline Mother” book goes there.
I have the Witch Bpd/Npd mother.
It also goes into the type of men the Witch mothers marry.
My parents are not merely immature.
They are malignant, sadistic and parasitic on all levels.
The book is the most validating one I have read.
I found it to be pretty useless for me. It seemed to reiterate everything I knew and didn’t clarify things I actually wanted to know (like you said, going beyond the content). I was disappointed.
It felt like it was making excuses for their actions almost. As if they’re incompetent, and not just abusive, malicious, people.
I would say that book is for more emotionally neglectful parents, which I personally identify more with. There is some crossover between emotional neglect and narcissism, but at the end of the day are very different. May not be the book for you and your situation
Yep. It felt gaslighty (and I’m a therapist too)
I find closure on the book
Yes – because I felt it was too light in content in regards to my mother.
I agree she is emotionally immature. But- there was just so much more.
I read The Dance of Anger. It was very helpful for my mental health. I gained an understanding of my reactions to anger.
I truly understood my life when I began reading books about narcissists. They might have used my mother as an example. It was like a large load of guilt falling off my shoulders. I shared with my sisters. Some were in agreement and some took years to come to terms with the idea.
It’s apparent my nmom is not just a narcissist but a malignant narcissist. She also has other mental illnesses. I suspect BiPolar.
I’m sorry that’s your experience. The book was very validating for me personally.
I think the book is written for people who wake up one day and realize that everything about how they think/feel/operate in the world is identical to someone who had really serious abuse as a child — but who can’t recall any concrete instances of abuse, who think their childhood was just fine. And are left wondering why that is.
I don’t think the book was written for people who know their parents were abusive. So yeah, you’re not the target audience.
There are levels beyond narcissism and neglect, unfortunately. Check out /r/cptsd, for example. And yeah, a lot of therapists aren’t prepared to deal with serious abuse. People who have never been through anything severe themselves will often refuse to believe other people have, for a variety of reasons. It depends on the individual. I personally really liked Adult Children…, but yeah, I maxed out the assessments it gave. “If you scored more than 10/50 …”, and I got 49/50.
Why Does He Do That? is a good read about intentionally abusive men. It is aimed at domestic violence partners (wives, girlfriends) but the insights are universally applicable.
Not all self help books but some of them feel more “general audiences” than I’d like. Gibson’s books are insightful but I wish there was more coverage of “parents who pretend to be good in public but are intentionally monsters in private, not bc they came from trauma but too much privilege”
Some don’t get that there are “parents” who not only neglect and torture you but they need to isolate you and keep you dependent on them. It’s not always that a parent is just immature, some of them get off on abusing others behind closed doors.
that book isn’t about overt abuse that can be easily pointed at.
I think it’s value is in helping those who were trained to give their low key shitty and manipulative parents the benefit of the doubt, or else feel horrible and ungrateful.
I spent decades trying to make sense of my parents bad behavior, feeling guilty about my relationship with them.
When I read that book, I kept having a weird feeling like the book was reading my mind. Like… how does this book know what I’m thinking? I thought I was crazy
but.. the damage done by those parents can just as insidious. My parents were too clever to hit me. but I’m pretty sure I was psychically abused as a baby to train my nervous system to fear the pain that these much larger people could deploy at will. I learned fear and guilt
if you train a young animal with a whip, you don’t have to whip it the rest of it’s life. The animal’s nervous system will always know that the whip is there, even if they have no memory of it
It’s so validating to hear so many of you drawing the same conclusion from the book that I did. I don’t feel so alone in finding that it didn’t apply to the witch that raised me. My mother was a callous, steely-cold, malignant narcissist (heavy on the sadism). She enjoyed inflicting pain.
She enjoyed other people’s pain full stop. She was vile.
I have a really hard time sharing how abusive my mother was, sadistic, cruel, …enoyed being abusive like it was her favorite past time. …..for the simple reason that you’re not believed. People think you’re exaggerating when you try to explain the remorseless, totally depraved nature of someone living off of your suffering, like it’s heroin to them. I don’t want to minimize someone else’s experience of abuse, because obviiously it was abusive for them-right?. But then I read in another Narc sub, “not all abusers are Narcissistic”. Like this is news to me, which I still can’t process, because what kind of person abuses a child…enough to deserve the characterization of “abuser” but not be Narcissistic? And then exactly what Own_Poet6577, wrote “some therapists aren’t ready to accept that a parent can be intentionally destructive”. Every therapist I’ve had , has listened to my narrative with a certain amount of skepticism, and obvious shock. IT makes me feel so bad, and no matter what I do, no matter what anyone says, these arguments around “they deserve empathy and understanding” is such a huge trigger, I want to scream. My insides were so saturated with Shame, and it took so long to pull myself out of that marass of self hatred, and deep gut wrenching shame……….I have Zero tolerance for anyone trying to sell some narrative to “they couldnt’ help it.” Or victimhood, when I watched my depraved, cruel sadistic mother, behave herself all the time with perfect strangers, and then claim not to be able to do that with me, given her ‘Right” to be angry or whatever other bullshit narrative of why I “deserved ” it. When at the end of the day, She LIKED, being that way………….Full Stop.
I”m constantly frustrated to communicate what I really mean by Abusive, having a choice not to be that way, and then choosing to be that way because it worked for her. Fed some soul sickness, stripping you of your humanity. …..and then telling you , you deserve it. It doesnt’ ever leave your brain. You carry it with you for life. There have been some recent posts on (other abuse subs) advocating for understanding and empathy “Don’t dehumanize the abuser, poor them their victims too” . And it pushes me around the bend., knowing what I know about my Mother. Watching her behave with perfect strangers, but minimize my existence to this objectified human-less entity , like a human whipping post. Refuse to get help, ….not want help………because why? For you? Why……when what they’re doing works for them?
I feel like some people don’t’ really understand the full meaning of REMORSELESS. You’d have to see that to understand what that looks like. Even as a child, even later with therapy, I still didnt’ understand what exactly I was looking at, when you’re looking for some fragment of shame, guilt for what they’ve done, …………and it’s simply ……….NOt There!
How do you explain that to someone who never experienced that, and expect them to understand, to believe it’s a thing? I tried to post something about how infuriating it is to try to explain that , and got no replies , which was really deflating and invalidating.
I have read it but got much more use out of How to Kill a Narcissist by J. H. Simon. It completely changed the game for me.
No, I gave up on reading it because I read it after reading Running On Empty. There’s lots of overlap in trying to read both, and by the time I was through the first couple chapters of ACoEIP I felt that it doesn’t really solve any of my current issues anymore because Running on Empty (which was the book I read first) already solved it.
Yes! It’s so hard to find resources for healing from an actively malicious parent! I’ve seen others recommend Complex CPTSD by Pete Walker and I second that. Also Healing the Fragmented Souls of Trauma Survivors by Janina Fisher was HUGE for me.
Have you tried Children of the Self Absorbed? That hit home for me
Yep, I bought the trilogy at the suggestion of my therapist. Couldn’t even get halfway through the first one.
I kept thinking, “they aren’t just ’emotionally immature’, they’re emotionally ABUSIVE”.
I can’t finish the book Jeanette McCurdy wrote because it just brings up too much for me.
There’s a difference between immature and narcissistic. Immaturity is the tip of the iceberg.