I am genuinely confused how anybody is supposed to think they’re not straight up getting kidnapped. I feel like if this happened to me I would want to mace them or something.
Also, is there anything stopping you from reacting as if they are not law enforcement if they don’t provide any evidence that they are?
In Philly, there was a kid from Temple who was arrested for impersonating ICE in order to terrorize people. I feel like there is nothing stopping crazy people from just abducting people by pretending to be ICE. Obviously we have a right to protect ourselves from those people, right? So like, what’s their plan for when one of the people they wanna snatch is legally armed or something? I just don’t get it. And is there something we can do/learn to do to intervene in these situations?
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You mean the American Gestapo?
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Even if unmarked they should have a badge and other info on them.
The confusion, and the terror it causes, is the point.
To answer your question, if they truly aren’t ICE agents yes you’re completely within your rights to defend yourself and others can intervene. If they actually are ICE agents, then you’re completely legally screwed at best and will probably later be harassed, assaulted, or killed by various enforcement officers at worst.
You’re not. That’s part of the thing; you never know if somebody that you’re walking past is going to grab you and say you’re being deported. Making people afraid is the point. And if you do fight back, all of a sudden you’re resisting arrest or assaulting an officer, with all that entails.
This reminds me of that one comedian who had a show where he was interviewing New Yorkers about the stop and frisk laws. A guy talks about how a plainclothes officer stopped him and frisked him and the comedian asked him if the cop ever showed him a badge. The other guy just stops for a bit and thinks and after a few seconds just says “I think I may have been molested”
If you are taken, and wake up in a prison in Cuba, it was ICE.
If you are taken and wake up in a dingy basement hanging by your wrists while you are attached to a car battery by jumper cables, you were most likely taken by a sociopathic serial killer. Of course that might still be Guantanamo Bay, so it might still be ICE. Let me try again…
If you are taken without having been informed of your rights or Constitutional protections, you were likely taken by the human trafficking ring from the movie Taken. But since ICE doesn’t seem to be beholden to the Constitution anymore, it could still be them…
Okay. This exercise has turned out to be much harder than I thought…
I had the gang task force in NY pull up on me one time. I legitimately thought I was being carjacked. 4 big ass NFL linebacker looking dudes in hoodies pulled up behind me when I parked and jumped out and got all over me in about 5 seconds. They pulled the badges out Maybe 20 seconds in. It was all real fast but they looked like organized crime doing crime stuff.
I wasn’t the guy they were looking for but 14 years later I still remember that interaction very clearly, like I was gonna robbed or shot or stabbed. After that I understand that police are just a government sanctioned gang. Those dudes ran up on me real crazy.
Update because I think it’s necessary. I’m a 5’11" white dude who’s ben mistaken for professional snow boarder Shaun White
A few years back a friend of mines GF was "assaulted " and killed when she opened the door for a guy wearing a police uniform he got off ebay.
It’s a hard question. Where is the "reasonable" fear line when you’re being threatened by someone claiming to be LE.
The fact that you can buy actual badges and passable uniforms online certainly doesn’t help.
You’re not supposed to know. Bare minimum, they want you to panic and fear for your life. Ideally (for them), you’d panic into defending yourself in some way, so they have an "excuse" to brutalize or even kill you.
From what I’ve seen in the videos, they do a horrible job of identifying themselves, and resort to ambush and fast-paced arrests to achieve their goals.
It basically looks like a kidnapping from an outside PoV.
That’s why I think anyone who is mentally capable, and a citizen, should exercise their 2nd Amendment rights to protect themselves.
There was a guy in Florida doing that. He wore an ice jacket he bought off eBay to fuck with ppl and he thought it was hilarious.
If they are not marked, don’t identify themselves with a badge and/or ID, and try to grab you then I would suggest fighting for your life. I am not a lawyer but that’s what I would do.
You can’t. That just adds to the fear. Which is by design.
Idk. It worries me. I had 6 undercover cops break in my door one night. I was 8 months pregnant. My toddler was sleeping, and my husband and I were watching TV. They were in the house and upstairs with guns well before anyone identified themselves. They hit the wrong house, but I nearly had the baby that night.
If they’re not in uniform shoot them in the face and claim self defense
There is video of an ATF agent getting arrested when he refused to show ID to the homeowner and local PD. He was there without a warrant (not uncommon) to ask about some firearm purchases and the wife refused to let him in and called 911.
ICE would get the same treatment from me if they were in plain clothes.
Don’t be a criminal or something idk what do smoothbrain cons say these days
I think about this every time I see any videos with law enforcement in plain clothes. If I saw someone getting abducted right in front of me, there’s a good chance I’d go into fight mode to help them.
Even that video of the woman being dragged out of a town hall by security that was in plain black clothing with no identifiers. How screwed up would it be to later find out that no one actually knew who those guys were and they weren’t hired by anyone and you just watched her get hauled off right in front of you?
That’s a weird question to ask when your whole government and its systems are illegitimate.
If they’re not in uniform they should be shot.
You’re not, and when you fight back they get to just kill you instead.
Here in Canada, we’re still sane about these things:
https://ici.radio-canada.ca/rci/en/news/2066770/umar-zameer-found-not-guilty-of-murder-in-toronto-police-officers-death
This guy accidentally ran over an undercover cop because he thought his family was being attacked.
But if you’re in the states, you’re probably screwed either way.
ICE only “snatches” people who are not following the legal immigration process so it is not likely that those individuals being snatched would be legally armed.
They don’t. The chaos is part of the point.
You just ask them are those lvl 4 plates.
I joke but one of these days a plain clothes I e agents gonna get blasted by someone and it’s gonna be interesting to see what happens from there
Me and some friends were talking about this today after watching a video of ice agents just crashing into a house and grabbing someone. If that was any of us? There would have been three dead agents very fast. No badge, no uniform and look like a thug? I wouldn’t have even thought twice about it.
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They aren’t supposed to know. The fear and uncertanty is a feature, not a bug. They want their targets to be confused and scared.
It sure looks like the fear is the point – ICE are doing terrorism on American citizens
That’s the neat part! You don’t, and they can shoot you if you fight back!
It’s almost as if they’re implements of state violence, doing so plain clothed is a new level of dirty – even the gestapo had the decency to wear a uniform.
To answer your question though, you don’t and I’m not certain that your response should change either way. May as well go down fighting because if they’re coming for you like that, your fate has already decided. Pepper spray to the face or a lucky punch is unlikely to change much so you might as well punch them in the face if it’ll make you feel better. If your government isn’t respecting the rule of law why on earth should you?
I doubt anyone is getting any kind of fair trial so questions of self defense and qualified immunity are moot until it is clear that you are even getting one. If you ever do get a trial then any degree of force is reasonable if you are in fear for your life and being bagged by anyone is a situation where a reasonable person would agree you shoot to kill.
If you survive these so called detention centres – which, to be clear, will be either because they deported you before you died or they’re liberated á la concentration camps of WW2 by parties of hitherto unknown – I don’t think anyone is going to care about whether you fought back or not.
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That’s so horrifying!!! I heard a story about a guy who stayed on the roof of a house and told ICE to come up and get him. Maybe try that or call the cops to verify. What else do you have to lose if they are legit and at your door?
Hey, I don’t know if anyone legitimately answered your question but I actually learned about this in class a few weeks ago.
ICE agents must identify themselves and you are not required to give them any information, especially if they don’t have a JUDICIAL warrant. A judicial warrant is signed by a judge. Most ICE agents will try to intimidate you but without the judicial warrant, you need to be firm in your declination of their questioning.
I miss when ICE ment frozen water or internal combustion engines.
If you are a democrat,You got to become one thing you wanted to vote against.
The Right to carry guns and protect 2nd amendment.
And the republicans are carrying the guns this time.
No non-uniformed officer should be allowed to arrest anyone. Ever
Totally agree. How do you know it isn’t a kidnapping?
This are also many examples of people impersonating regular police officers, stopping people for traffic stops, etc. It is scary. And often you don’t know the difference, especially if the person doing the impersonation is sophisticated about it. I guess it is just one of the hazards of life.
Republicans like making vague laws so they can apply it selectively. For example, the laws against abortion in many red states are so vague that doctors aren’t sure if they can remove a fetus when its already dead. This allows red state prosecutors to selectively go after people they want while allowing others to go free.
ICE agents want you to resist so they can have that extra incentive to assault and arrest you. And if you sometimes get attacked by an impersonator? They don’t care about that.
They aren’t legit. That’s part of the problem.
You aren’t and that’s exactly the point. Everybody anywhere should be afraid.
It is a felony to identify yourself as a law enforcement officer. That being said, criminals don’t care, and if I just wanted to kidnap you, it might be an easy way to get that done.
Same as any law enforcement offices not wearing a uniform (detective; under-cover officer) – the badge.
It’s actually pretty easy, if you are illegally in the US, just leave