If torture is ineffective, why do intelligence agencies still use it?

r/

If the claim that torture is less effective than thought, unreliable, a human rights violation, and therefore not useful is true, why is it still used by the CIA, Mossad, and MI6?

Comments

  1. Sweet-Sunflowersx Avatar

    As someone who studied criminal justice I can tell you it’s mostly about tradition and the illusion of control. Agencies keep doing it because they think it projects strength even though the data shows it’s basically useless. Pretty messed up when you think about it.

  2. 129za Avatar

    Mi6 doesnt use it

  3. AdOk1598 Avatar

    Why wouldn’t they? Maybe it gets the desired effect Of a made up confession, justifies an action that was already planned or whatever they want. Maybe it works 5% of the time. Broadly they dont face repercussions or face accountability for their actions. So it’s worth it.

    I mean the some of the folks from abu ghraib got nothing but a slap on the wrist for some of IMO the most abhorrent torture that’s likely ever happened.

  4. Fair-Face4903 Avatar

    Cruelty is the point.

  5. Sorry-Programmer9826 Avatar

    It rather depends. If you can immediately validate the information (e.g. what is the code to this safe) I suspect it is very effective. If you have to take the information on trust it’s probably worse than useless 

  6. morts73 Avatar

    This might be a surprise to you but the Geneva conventions aren’t always followed. Some people take pleasure from hurting others and couldn’t care less what information they obtain.

  7. A_Fleeting_Hope Avatar

    Torture is just hyper-conditional.

    One of the big problems is that many people just don’t know anything and honestly this is a bigger problem then you think because anyone doing an operation with any sort of mind to operational security is only going to tell the personnel mission relevant details, which may or may not be useful when you have someone captured after the fact. Sure, technically it’s not a ‘problem’ in a sense, but what I mean is it’s not helping at that point.

    People can also make up things under duress, etc. They can be unreliable narrators. There’s a lot of caveats.

    EDIT: To edit since I didn’t do a good job finishing the explanation. It *CAN be* highly effective, assuming certain conditions. So it’s more jus like another tool in the toolbox type of thing.

    Also, this isn’t going to be your gold standard for information gathering, but if you have nothing else, than you have nothing else to lose. You can always readjust your approach with better information/intelligence.

  8. AdvertisingLogical22 Avatar

    Ineffective as an intelligence gathering tool maybe, but very effective as a terrorism tool.

  9. freeman2949583 Avatar

    Torture is demonstrably effective if the information can be quickly checked and the victim knows it will be checked. One example is torturing someone for their ATM PIN. This is done effectively so frequently that we barely consider it news.

    Any sort of human intelligence that can’t be verified until well after the fact is inherently unreliable. Trained interrogators are indeed somewhat better at getting useful intel than torturers, but you can very easily end up in a situation where you have more suspects than trained interrogators. Then less efficient methods are used.

  10. Inner-Tackle1917 Avatar

    Because humans aren’t actually rational actors. Not even scary humans who work for groups like the CIA, Mossad and MI6. 

    People feel like it works, or like they need to do it, or just because they’re sickos who want to hurt people like that. So they do it. 

    Most secrete services are trying to move away from it because of the inefficacy. 

  11. Falernum Avatar

    The most effective is to have a belief that you torture, and then you interrogate people without torture. A side effect of this is that ordinary people believe that you practice torture even if you don’t

  12. pic_strum Avatar

    Because it isn’t ineffective. Questions just have to be phrased in the right way, so as not to lead to a certain, obvious, answer.

    So torturing for confession will get you the confession, but it won’t mean anything. But asking for particular information with open questions will be effective.

    I feel pretty grubby after giving my opinion on this.

    TL:DR torture bad

  13. matt35303 Avatar

    They do it because they are sadistic and use patriotism as an excuse to do shitty things.

  14. [deleted] Avatar

    Because human beings are just cruel scumbags to people they see as their enemies.

  15. panguy87 Avatar

    Enhanced interrogation techniques are very effective in producing verifiable information. Names, dates, and information that can be corroborated.

    When used solely or individually without verification, then it is to be considered unreliable with no way to know for certain.

    Verifiable intelligence obtained via enhanced interrogation is effective. Putting 100% trust in something that can not be checked is not.

    However morally repugnant we may find enhanced interrogation techniques, they produce results quickly. But should not be used for tortures sake. The security services don’t resolve threats by pulling finger nails or cutting off digits – but waterboarding, sensory deprivation, truth serum etc, these methods are sanctioned.

    Beating the crap out of someone or torture isn’t an interrogation technique that our security services employ.

  16. BriefBerry5624 Avatar

    You are not going to get a good response on this website on any sensitive topic you ask, I’ll eat the downvotes for it. If you want the actual answer it’s because torture is actually extremely effective. You’re going to get a lot of political or emotional responses instead of anything based it reality in the “NoStupidQuestions” sub for some reason

    Question, hold, verify, question – Torture

    Torture is and is seen as ineffective when the wanted results are not quantifiable. If I ask for x location, torture you and then verify the results while holding you then that’s an effective process. If the results are poor then the torture is ineffective and in vacuum the torturer has just abused someone for no reason.

    There’s a comment above mine about MI6 not using torture methods which is the most naive thing ever. Every entity that seeks answers “tortures” in some capacity when seeking data, either through emotional, physical or neglectful abuse. We just draw a line somewhere and depict that point as “torture”

    Torture can easily be justifiable through hypotheticals but it is almost always immoral and unethical because of the assumed initial guilt and withholding of information.

    It’s unarguable that Torture is/can be effective, but when it is not the gravity of failure is higher than just confining someone. Due to this people will take a total sum stance on it, but regardless of personal beliefs it can and often is effective.

    Basically just assume that if every single OGA/spy/threat based agency in the world uses torture then it’s more than likely effective in some capacity, even if it’s not the MOST effective.

    Like Reddit I like to assume that I’m right and the smartest person in the room even in the face of thousands of people but I can take a step back and understand that probably isn’t the case most of the time, even if I don’t like the answer

    The top comment is essentially “because evil” I think everyone here who can think critically knows that probably isn’t the case, but easier to just not think

  17. hiricinee Avatar

    The literature on it isn’t that clear, you can’t exactly get a double blind study where you get people to submit to torture.

    Theres been mixed data when they do manage to collect anything. What they do find is that people without information are likely to make something up to stop the event but that’s not to say people with information won’t share it. Infamously the 9-11 mastermind was subjected to waterboarding and supposedly gave useful information after not responding to other interrogation methods.

    I should clarify that I’m not making this statement to defend the use of torture morally, but rather to at least attempt to make sure we’re talking about the same set of facts.

  18. squidwurrd Avatar

    What does effective mean exactly? I can’t imagine if someone being tortured has the information you need you couldn’t get it out of them.

    Also anyone being tortured is being tortured secret because I’m pretty sure it’s not the kind of thing made public. So how do you conduct a study and publish anything meaningful to the public?

    You can’t catalog all the instances of torture that worked vs ones that didn’t work because you’d then have to expose things like the study methodology and all that.

    Anyway I don’t know but my gut says it’s effective if you have information to be tortured out of you.

  19. zsaleeba Avatar

    It’s not effective at getting the truth.

    It is effective at getting confessions. Just not true ones. And if you don’t care whether the confessions are true or not that may not be a problem for you.

  20. kinglizardking Avatar

    Because those torturers don’t care about commiting a crime and breaking international law.

    Is like asking why police kill people that aren’t a treat

  21. LittleFairyOfDeath Avatar

    Because depending on what you actually want from them it does actually work.

    Also sadism.

    Also also, researching torture is kinda difficult. It does yield accurate information sometimes but it doesn’t always. Its a mixed bag

  22. Slappy_Kincaid Avatar

    Torture is ineffective for producing reliable information. However it is effective for (1) getting people to say what you want them to say, including confessing to anything and everything (2) terrifying potential opposition in the population you seek to control.

    Why is it used now? Aside from reasons 1 & 2, above (or perhaps in addition to 1 and 2), it is used because the interrogators are stupid and/or sadistic.

  23. 5u114 Avatar

    For the lolz.

  24. SushiGradeChicken Avatar

    Because it’s fun

  25. Euphoric-Mousse Avatar

    The vast majority of people don’t see all human life as equal or valuable. Torture doesn’t happen in a vacuum, it’s against people that they are repeatedly told and shown are the “bad guys”. And quite often it’s absolutely true too. Not a lot of torture of random cashiers or store clerks. Quite a bit of torture of people who blow up children, burn down hospitals, etc. Not all of course but if we’re talking about intelligence agencies they’re not going to waste time and resources on people who can’t feed them intel.

    The effectiveness is sometimes just a matter of fear. The next person brought in sees a cut off toe and a bunch of sharp instruments and they’re more likely to immediately talk. If they’ve spent days hearing screaming from the next room they’re more likely to talk. If they get released and tell everyone what happened it makes the next person picked up more likely to talk.

    Torture doesn’t work but fear is a huge psychological motivator. And not just to talk. If you escape somehow but you knew it was happening you’re less likely to keep up the fight. More likely to cut a deal. Turn on your organization. Things like that. And if it didn’t have a strong return on the investment, believe me these groups would stop.

  26. Vedzma Avatar

    Polygraphs aren’t effective either, some countries still use it. The military-adjecent agencies are terrifying tbh

  27. Mobe-E-Duck Avatar

    Because it does work for verifiable information. It doesn’t work if the person has a reasonable expectation they can get away with lying, but if they know you’ll check and come back then it can work. Not justifying it, just a fact.

  28. serenading_ur_father Avatar

    Because fear works.

    Are you more afraid to protest the Saudi government or the Dutch?

  29. Wheloc Avatar

    Torture isn’t effective at producing actionable intelligence, but it does serve to intimidate a population into compliance (at least temporarily). This is mostly why intelligence agencies use it.

    It also serves as a sort of “gang initiation” for agents and operatives. Making someone commit torture breaks down empathy and provides a common experience, increasing both obedience and group cohesion.

  30. OddTheRed Avatar

    They typically don’t. I’ve seen an interrogation of a terrorist in Afghanistan. It looks nothing like what you’ve seen in movies. It was quick, emotionally charged, and effective. The investigator didn’t lay a finger on the guy.

  31. Nightowl11111 Avatar

    As someone who has anti-interrogation training before, I can give some insights into this. Torture as a method of getting information is good in getting a lot of initial information, but as some have noted, you’ll get a lot of chaff along with the wheat. Torture is “just” there to give you the initial collection of information and to identify people with loose lips, the “2nd pass” of information collecting is then to separate the genuine stuff from the nonsense that desperate people toss out.

    This is why during a war, you are taught only to give name, rank and serial number and SHUT UP during POW processing. In a war, both you and your enemy are going to be flooded with POWs and there is something called an LTIOV or Last Time Information Of Value. The interrogators are going to be pressured to produce results fast and to do that, they have to target the chatty ones. Which means that the more stubborn you are during processing, the more likely you are to be tossed to one side because there are going to be easier people to provoke to give information. You know who is most likely to give out information? The “human rights” activist. By breaking from the “Name, rank, serial number” protocol, they have already shown that they can be “twisted” from their training or that they did not have that training in the first place and are willing to “talk”.

    So yes, while torture is less effective than thought, it is by no means *ineffective*. You just need to sieve out the real information from the desperate nonsense that people give out under duress.

    “I cannot answer that question, Comrade”.

  32. TheHearseDriver Avatar

    Because they’re sadists.

  33. ManyAreMyNames Avatar

    Because they like to hurt people. Quoting Nineteen Eighty-Four:

    > Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.

  34. pussmykissy Avatar

    Torture works.

    Violence works.

    People just want to act like it doesn’t, yet everyone invests in a military.

  35. Sky_Ill Avatar

    GTA5 got flak when it came out for the torture scene but it’s the most effective demonstration I’ve ever gotten that torture is for the pleasure of the torturer, not any material value.

  36. SergenteA Avatar

    I will add another option. Many say torture can get innocents to say anything the torturer wants to make it stop. And sometimes, during an interrogation, the interrogators do not actually want the truth. Just a scapegoat or a justification. Join the two, you get why it can still be used.

    Police needing someone to blame even if not the actual culprit. Show trials of political opponents needing some sort of confession. Invasions or other controversial needing some sort of justification, casus belli.

    The truth doesn’t matter.

  37. BabyFestus Avatar

    Counterpoint: Torture is super effective.

    You don’t torture in order to learn information. You torture in order to get a false confession or false accusation. Almost 100% effective.

  38. Tay_Tay86 Avatar

    It’s ineffective for information, but it is very effective as a tool for control and intimidation through terror.

  39. EnBuenora Avatar

    Torture may not be effective at getting valid information, but it’s really good at frightening anyone who hears of the torture and at encouraging and satiating sadistic impulses in your own enforcers.

  40. highmickey Avatar

    It is effective if you want to get some specific information.

    But if you want this person to work for you, be your asset, bring you numerous more information and facilitate a bigger, deeper game plan for you; you need a different strategy.

    It’s impossible to build such a relationship after torturing him.

    But sometimes, they don’t need that or they have reasons to believe that will not work. The only thing they need is just a piece of information. In that case, torture is the easiest solution since early ages.

  41. dispelhope Avatar

    I read a story told by a victim of the Khmer Rouge who said that torture was never about finding or discovering the truth, it was about hurting the victim to the point that they would confess to any and everything, thus giving the torturers the confession they needed to “judicially justify” the victims execution.

    As to why the CIA, Mossad, and MI6 use torture…maybe it is the same reason as the Khmer rouge…a means to an end.

  42. FiftyEightWombats Avatar

    Because sometimes all people want are answers. Even if those answers aren’t true

  43. rosered936 Avatar

    Define ineffective. It is very effective to get people to say what the torturer wants them to say in order to justify what the torturer wants to do. It’s just ineffective at getting the truth. I don’t think that getting the truth is really their ultimate goal.