I think in movies that have both a good guy and a bad guy the bad guy should win about half the time. This would help make the movies more realistic and less predictable. I think having the good guy almost always win in movies also makes people in real life think that whoever doesn’t win must be the bad guy and whoever wins must be the good guy.
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How do you decide which movies get to let the good guys win?
Perfectly balanced.
Didn’t this happen in infinity war
Movies aren’t necessarily good just because they’re realistic. We tell stories to reflect and critique and in the case of the hero’s journey, to aspire toward something.
It can be super boring and predictable, and Marvel certainly hasn’t helped with the oversaturation. But watch documentaries if you wanna see the bad guys winning a all the time. The stories we make up aren’t meant to be rote repetitions of our day to day.
That already exists, it’s called sports 🙂
Cool idea though, making movies like sports match when you’re a dedicated fan of one team. I might watch more movies if it was like this. But even if you and I would like it more, the profits for the film industry would take a nosedive lol
I think part of the enjoyment of a movie is thinking “how are they gonna get out of this situation?” Because you know the good guy will most likely get out of a bad situation and win
>I think having the good guy almost always win in movies also makes people in real life think that whoever doesn’t win must be the bad guy and whoever wins must be the good guy.
History being written by the victor is a lot older than the film industry.
Why should art have to conform so that people don’t “get the wrong idea”? That’s dumb as fuck.
I don’t watch movies because they are realistic bro
Realism is overrated
This would have an abominably bad influence on children, and a lot of adults too.
I think the bad guy does win about half the time but because they’re the protagonist we don’t actually see them as the bad guy. Like in Ocean’s Eleven, the casino owner is the bad guy and the crew are the good guys. We want them to win and they do. But they are committing a crime against someone who at worst is guilty of being rich, bossy and having a consenting relationship with a woman who happens to be an ex of the main criminal. The bad guys win, they get the cash.
Maybe not half the time, but I agree it might make movies more interesting again in the age of movies with no real plot.
I think this was called hays code. Good must prevail. I want to upvote you, but I agree with you.
I agree. Max Steel, the movie failed because of this. In the cartoon, the villain won the majority of the time. But in the live action movie, an inexperienced max steel beat him first time? Like bro ain’t nobody buying that BS.
The casual movie audience would be way too soft to handle that.
It should definitely become more commonplace for the bad guy to win. It’s a more realistic reflection of the world and it subverts expectations
See that sounds fine on paper, but for most movies it simply would be unsatisfying. “Good guys” are usually the POV. They’re typically the people you cheer for and you want them to overcome their adversity. Plots are built up with the protagonist overcoming a challenge. So to finally reach the climax just for it to end as “Sorry they lost” is just unsatisfying, regardless if it’s realistic.
Obviously this doesn’t apply to everything. You can have a story where losing at the end is interesting or where the POV is the villain. I’m simply speaking in general terms.
Imagine watching 9 hours of Lord of the Ring, Frodo gets to Mordor, about to throw the ring into Mount Doom, then Sauron just sends someone to murder Frodo, wins, and takes over Middle Earth. Yes wow, what a twist, but it would have felt the movie just wasted hours of my life. What was the point of the Fellowship going through all the struggles if they simply lost anyways? The movies could have ended with the Ring Wraiths finding Frodo in the woods when escaping the Shire and the outcome would be exactly the same.
Most movies aren’t about “realism”. They’re about telling a complete and satisfying story. And many story just wouldn’t be satisfying if they rug pull it with the villain winning.
George R R Martin’s ears just perked up
I’d extend that to happy endings, some of the greatest movies I’ve watched were without a happy ending.
It depends on what the movie is about. Most of the time the good guy wins to make the journey have a point, it wraps up the loose ends and completes the story
If we are trying to reflect reality, the number would have to be higher.
Ooorr have more depth in both characters so that we can have a discussion on their motives and who really is the good guy.
The bad guy wins most of the time in real life. I go to movies so that I can get a break from reality.
imo that’s the appeal of professional wrestling.
You’re missing the fact that the “bad guy” in most stories only exists to give the good guy someone to struggle against, an obstacle to overcome. That’s their narrative purpose, so if they won the story would no longer work. Movies aren’t realistic, they are a storytelling medium. Audiences don’t want realism per se, or else we’d see a lot more historical documentaries and accurate historical dramas and biopics that do not have fictional elements added for entertainment value. What audiences want is verisimilitude, the illusion of realism, and I think that’s your real complaint.
The good guys always winning does break immersion for many people, but my counter argument would be that by the time the climax rolls around and our hero claims his final victory, the good part of the movie is already over anyway. Climaxes are predictable and more about the spectacle than the narrative, so which side wins doesn’t really matter. The meat of the movie is in the first 3/4th.
Many viewers want “emotional security,” the knowledge that the good guy will prevail. Tragic stories are not very popular these days, people don’t want to sign up to watch pain and suffering. Stories that go for an evil twist at the end are often very poorly received (see GoT season 8).
Yeah nobody wants to watch that (not nobody really but almost). People want a gratifying film. People want a protagonist who they can root for, and few films can or want to work around this.
I like this! It turns a movie from “how are they going to win” to “will this work?!”
The final resolution of the narrative’s main conflict doesn’t need to be the only source of subverted expectations. Most of the time it’s how the characters get to the finish line, not the finish line itself, that delivers the most satisfying elements of the plot.
Well it doesn’t matter if the good guy or bad guy wins. it has to make sense why either one wins or loses. While I do think I want stories where the bad guys do ultimately win, it sucks when it feels like bullshit.
1/3 of the time. Makes for best trilogies
We watch movies to escape from reality, not see more of it
“Evil will always win over good, cause good is dumb.”
I agree in one aspect. I think if it was executed decently then it would make movies less predictable which is a pretty good thing imo. It would probably increase the suspense and make it more entertaining. But there’s also a lot of other reasons as to why this wouldn’t work perfectly.
You aren’t the first person to think about this.
Every once in a while, someone has made a movie where the good guys loose, but test audiences don’t like movies where the bad guys win, so reshoots are done to change the end.
If you spent hundreds of millions making a movie, and need the movie to make a profit, you aren’t going to take a chance upsetting audiences.
people don’t watch movies because they’re realistic
they watch them because they’re fun to watch. and it’s fun when the good guys win
I agree, part of why infinity war was so good
Man, I watched Heart Eyes last night and wished the killers would win. The protagonists were so annoying…
I misread this as ‘the bald guy’ and wondered if Larry David made this post
More realistic and less predictable does not necessarily make for a better movie though.
Ok write a story where the villain wins and sell it
You know a movie has crappy writing when the bad guy is making more sense than the ‘good guy/s’.
I think that’s also because when the bad guy win, the movie doesn’t end there. Most of the time it only ends when the protagonist win it back after losing. Then if it is base on true history, they don’t follow up when the same protagonist lose again.
I think you need to watch more movies dog
I don’t think I could handle it. Arlington Road still makes me upset to this day
I think the movie should have the winner be decided by which ever one results in the best writing. That’s my only criteria
I’m with ya OP, more movies need to the courage to let the bad guys win sometimes
I’ve got a buddy that believes that 10% of hallmark movies should end in complete tragedy for this reason
Nobody thinks the good guy always wins. They just want happy endings in their fantasy
Try watching some foreign films. Good guy often gets creamed.
I think the protagonist should win
Idk about putting a definitive number on it, but perhaps an increase in bad endings *would* make movies in general more unpredictable.
I think it depends on whether it’s good for the plot. There’s no point in following a conflict if it feels like the good guys *truly* have no chance of winning.
Stories aren’t about realism. They’re about conveying a message through thematic metaphors.
Having the protagonist triumph for their perspective on your theme tends to make a much clearer point than the protagonist failing because they chose the wrong option.
Additionally, depends on what you mean by “bad guy” and “good guy”. A lot of “good guys” are really deplorable people that ruin a lot of the shit around them.
Greg Heffley is a sociopathic spoilt dweeb.
Indiana Jones is the embodiment of the British museum, taking shit what don’t belong to him.
Nearly every romcom lead ditches their current perfect husbands because they’re “boring”.
Rick & Morty follows a man who had unrepentantly committed numerous genocides.
Like, those series always have the objectively bad guy winning.
This is precisely why Infinity War had such a crazy impact when it came out. (Comic buffs who knew how it would go pls leave us alone) But nobody went in expecting the good guys to lose and lose convincingly the way they did.
It’s such a breath of fresh air to see, especially in a super hero movie.
The bad guys win in real life so much that we need movies to give us a false equivalent that being good results in a happy ending.
The bad guys win enough in real life, they don’t need to win in fiction too.
Usually they win at first but the movie just doesn’t end there.
Sadly people hate when the character they been following and invested time into loses
I think the bad guys winning would work well in movie series as opposed standalone titles. Like Movie #2 might end in a depressing loss for the hero but movie #3 would show the hero turning it around
I’d say it should be like 25% of the time, depending on the type of movie.
Horror movies, bad guy should win 50/50. Movie about Nazis, they should win 0% of the time.
Agreed 100%. Don’t remember what movie it was but I remember being a kid and the bad guy/guys won at the end of that movie, and I was surprised as fuck in a good way lol video games need to do that more often too.
Yeah, and most porn should be a guy being told no.
Should a third of the runtime also be spent with the characters sleeping and the other third at work?
What’s the percentage needed to show them in the bathroom, or commuting?
You’re free to fund and/or make a movie where the bad guy wins, OP. No one is stopping you.
I’ve been preaching this for years. I would be so much more motivated to watch movies again
That’s what the second act is for
Bad guys win most of the time in real life. Why would you want movies to copy that?
that’s why infinity war is the greatest movie in the world
I would rather the bad guy win more often than not. It makes a sequel more compelling and necessary rather than forced for more money
I personally dislike seeing the good guy win all the time. I would enjoy seeing a sequel where they are up and coming after getting their ass beat and then win.
Truly unpopular, it’s based on the idea that the entirety of the movie industry is working together with every aspect of every movie.
Also, the villain should get the love interest 90% of the time. That will make the 10% where the protagonist does, much more emotional.
I do wonder how society would be different in a parallel universe where 99% of fictional stories had the villain winning at the end instead of the good guys.
Stories and their protagonists are vessels for our societal values. For most stories, the “good guy” represents some sort of morality and the “bad guys” represent some sort of amorality.
This sort of storyline means that the good guy “should” win, because it reinforces to the audience that morality is better than amorality.
This isn’t to say you can have different stories which follow something different than “good guy good, bad guy bad.” It’s just the easiest and simplest to provide a core theme to your audience.
Watch more Tarantino movies in that case lol
It would certainly be better than that feeling of being about to witness a generic third act and resolution to the hero’s journey.
movies would be boring and sad then
1/3. The middle part of a trilogy.
Everyone who thinks this should be forced to watch funny games and then tell me you still want movies where the bad guy wins.
You’re watching the wrong movies
Hitler did win in a way tbh
Equating protagonist with “good guy” is kinda braindead
>This would help make the movies more realistic
Weird complaint. There are dozens of movie tropes that exist ONLY because it makes the movie more entertaining. Realism cannot be increased in many movie genres without hurting their entertainment value….and if you don’t think so, you haven’t thought it through.
>and less predictable.
Another weird complaint.
A) movies for grown-ups don’t have bad guys. They have characters and stories. The goodness or badness of a character often don’t really matter…..that’s why we have words like protagonist and antagonist…..a protagonist can be a “bad guy”, you know, by the definition that babies use to define a bad guy.
B) The kind of movies that have good guys and bad guys are PRECISELY the kind of movies that have standard stories where the good guy wins. Also, there are many many stories where the “good guy” wins that are very unpredictable. Having the end point set, still allows the path to that end point be whatever you want. Requiring the “good guy” to win, is far less restricting than you make it out, and frankly, screams “I’ve seen 100 movies ever, and none were made before 2005.”
If I was worried about realism I’d watch a documentary.
Depends on the movie man. This is clearly a case by case scenario thing.
And if you really want things to be believable, “about half the time” isn’t nearly enough. Villains win all the time in reality.
Many movies are written in such a way that the bad guys have had plenty of victories, and we just stop telling the story at the point when a good guy gets a victory.
The bad guy winning isn’t really a story, it’s just stuff happening…if the bad guy wins, they’re the good guy
I read an article about how people always clame they want realism but if they actually get it, they hate it. I decided to drop that here for no particular reason.
A lot of people don’t go to movies for realism. They go to movies to escape reality.
I don’t necessarily agree with the last point about people viewing real life winners as good guys, but I definitely agree. More movies should end with the bad guys winning outside of horror movies. I get very few people want to make the movie where the bad guy wins, but the lack of it takes any suspense or sense of stakes out of so many movies and shows.
I think a big part of why Game of Thrones was such a hit was because it re-introduced stakes into TV. Law and Order isn’t interesting because I know they’re gonna catch the bad guy. Star Wars/Marvel isn’t interesting because I know the heroes win. At best there’s some cost to the win, but even the costs get softened most of the time (a character gets shot, but oh look, they wake up in the hospital right at the end, all is well)
Too often the bad guy wins in real life. We like stories because they give us an escape from that reality. They reinforce our desire to believe that good will win in the end, at least in the movies.
If we take away our faith in that, I can’t help but imagine the world becoming even more nihilistic and apathetic.
They usually do. Just always in the same order. Bad guy wins, good guy learns/trains/goes on a quest/whatever, then good guy wins.
I think that would be rather unsatisfying for most of the audience.
agree, that’s why game of thrones was so popular, you never know if the “good” guys will win or die next.
You’re not understanding that both sides are their own good guys. There is no “bad” side. You can root for either one, but some movies paint one side as “better” than the other.
Example: What if Voldemort is really the good guy and the writer just makes us believe Harry Potter is, when he’s not… and grows up to kill millions?
If it was realistic it’d probably be closer to like 90% of the time lol. This opinion feels similar to what I told my friend in the past.
We were talking about the ideal win rate in a hypothetical video game we would design. I told him I could even do a 0% win rate so the game would be endlessly repayable though maybe practically 50% might be a bit better. I think he settled on something like 80% stating that he likes the high of actually winning (where as I play every game on hard difficulty if possible)
Agree with the first sentence, hard disagree with the last. There is a reason the good guys win though, most people suffer enough bs in their day to day life that they don’t need it in their escapism. Downer endings tend to be less popular as well
“I think having the good guy almost always win in movies also makes people in real life think that whoever doesn’t win must be the bad guy and whoever wins must be the good guy.”
Whomever wins at the end of the movie is usually seen as the good guy and the loser the bad guy even if the bad guy was actually the good guy.
This is why I love House of 1000 Corpses
Bad guys win
Yeah, having the bad guy win sometimes would mix things up and make movies feel less predictable
Thanos wasn’t wrong.
This is why I can’t enjoy marvel films or superhero films in general. Even with the biggest Avenger’s films they kill off Spiderman, but then he still gets separate movies so it doesn’t really matter anyway. And Thanos dies anyway which was obvious.
I don’t mind about realistic but it’d make it a lot more exciting when you genuinely don’t know who’s gonna win or whatever
Yeah just look at Trump, he’s been “winning” so far. Hopefully he gets his.
Realistic stories are boring, which is why we watch the incredible stories. It is about the protagonist overcoming the odds.
Think of it like this, if your friend came back from the casino and said, I bet $20 on number 7 on roulette and won $720, it would be much more interesting than if they bet the same and lost. The latter happens 37/38 times, which is why it is not interesting.
Which highlights another problem in your reasoning. The good guy should not win half the time in a representative sample, they should win significantly less than that.
When we watch movies, you need to think about it as a sample of all adventures that has been filtered down to the interesting ones, which heavily correlates with the ones where the unexpected happens. And the unexpected is that the protagonist beats the odds.
Just watch a documentary bro.
Ever tried watching something other than action movies?
Darth Vader never really lost. He just changed his mind.
Great example of this was Dodge Ball. The original movie had the bad guys win since that was ‘the true underdog story’. However they changed it because it tested so poorly that they made a new ending. Because investing in a narrative with no payoff sucks.