“Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment.”
I’ve been vegan for 7 years, and still eat mostly plant based. My priority in all my actions is to minimize the suffering of all creatures, and I don’t think veganism is much better than eating meat. I think in general when you can, buying tofu is better than buying a pig, however its far from ethical.
Veganism often ignores the suffering of humans, who are also animals. When you buy soy imported across the world by child slaves and exploited workers, you are contributing to that suffering with your dollar. Yes, soy is farmed more for animals, but you are still contributing to it with your dollar. And that is the whole point of boycotting animal products, right?
Well if you abstain from buying when possible, your money does not go towards any suffering. Because plant based foods are simply not ethical unless you harvested it from the ground yourself. By getting food that’s been thrown away, you are preventing things from being put in a landfill. Even if it’s dairy. Even if it’s meat. (Do not eat meat from dumpster diving but you know what I mean)
There is more human and animal suffering put towards your cruelty free products than the free shampoo that’s been thrown away for overstocking, even if it’s been tested on animals or contains goats milk.
I would argue that even hunting for meat is more ethical for veganism, seeing as indigenous people have lived off this land for thousands of years causing way less harm than we have ever done to the environment and animals. One deer dying to feed you for months is less suffering and pain than the humans and animals who’ve lived hell to produce a neatly packaged block of seitan in plastic. Is that not causing as little harm, as far as possible and practicable? Can you really say that any of these products shipped from all over the world, which has been shown to be detrimental to the environment, is more ethical than trying to live without participating in that?
Not only that, people are poor. It is not cheap to live vegan. The cheap meals cost time to make, and time is a privilege most people don’t have. It is more accessible to the working class, and more people would be willing to try and live ethically if they were able. Being able to go plant based is a privilege.
A good down jacket from a thrift store will keep a person warm without contributing to mass produced polyester jackets that was made in a sweat shop. It is cheaper. It is preventing something from being thrown away. It is almost never fully ethical to buy something new. Someone will suffer for your cotton sweater, even if it’s from an inaccesible expensive ethical producer. A wool sweater from a small thrift store has already gone through that, it’s been bought, and now by buying it again, you aren’t contributing financially to the harm of beings.
I still continue to identify as vegan. I am vegan, and my life style is vegan. I avoid the exploitation of animals as far as possible and practicable as I see it.
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You’re probably the only vegan on earth I’d ENJOY discussing diets with. I appreciate your nuance so much.
True vegans, which is not you OP, perceive animals with as much importance as humans.
To put it another sarcastic way: There are some unclaimed dead human bodies at the hospital with no family or friends who care about those dead people. It would be a WASTE to not harvest their skin and hair to make human leather shoes, belts and wigs, and we might as well eat their muscles and organs because it would be a WASTE not to.
It’s disgusting to think that way… if the humans were alive, they would object to their bodies being used that way after death. To honour the dignity of humans, we would never do that. For true vegans to honour the dignity of animals, we would never do that.
So true vegans DO NOT recycle old animal products. It disgraces the dignity of the deceased animals they came from.
You left out road kill. Or did you? It’s just going to waste.
Indigenous people that hunted were groups of dozens of people living off the land, it is nowhere close to the population we have today.
Also, people and animals that hunt are constantly on the move because animals do notice patterns and will move from dangerous areas. Or get hunted to extinction.
The idea of veganism is to prevent animal suffering because they cannot consent. Humans can think of creative ways to meet their goal without harming animals
You sound more like a vegetarian. And I think you and I both know nobody wants to eat trash food…
I agree with this take but it might bd unpopular
You realize some people are just vegetarian/vegan due to dietary preferences and allergies right? Like I get what you’re saying, plant based products are often made unethically but that’s not the only reason people are vegan.
Yeah, the meat industry and the agriculture industry are both messed up, pretty much every processed product is super unethical in its production, this isn’t news. Whatever people eat is their own damn business.
Hunting is not feasible for the human population. Also, you can just eat local produce. Did you think of that.
Most people eating a vegetarian or vegan diet I know have no issue at all with thrifted leather clothing for example. Again, that’s not feasible for anyone. Especially not anymore when we stop producing leather clothing.
Also, you can also thrift cotton clothing.
“It is not cheap to eat vegan”… Sorry, but that’s on you. If eating a vegan diet is more expensive to you than eating meat you are doing something incredibly wrong or you live in a very strange country.
What are you eating that you think a vegan diet is more expensive?!
I’ve been vegan for 7 years, and still eat mostly plant based.
You’re not a VEGAN.
You are not vegan, you just want to feel ethical when you are not, vegans do not consume animal products
*Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals*.
You specifically removed the last line of the definition in your post
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Not only that, people are poor. It is not cheap to live vegan. The cheap meals cost time to make, and time is a privilege most people don’t have. It is more accessible to the working class, and more people would be willing to try and live ethically if they were able. Being able to go plant based is a privilege.
This is a very common and lame argument from carnists such as yourself, you use the buzz term privilege to try and make it more valid
A plant based diet is often recommended in the frugal subs, its also a diet of a lot of poor countries, most survive with beans, lentils, rice, etc;
All meals cost time to make, thats how cooking works, its also healthier and will reduce the need for expensive medical care as you age, they arent very difficult to make, i went vegan while poor and disabled and its been about 6 yrs, no problems, prior to being vegan i had 0 cooking skills, i basically microwaved everything
This is not changemyview and my intention is not to do that because it wont happen, you lie about being vegan and you have very common lame disproven arguments, your opinion is not unpopular though, its very popular its how people get around feeling bad, they try to justify their cruel behaviors
Most people abuse the possible and practicable excuse essentially so that people can feel ethical and call themselves vegan when they arent
Veganism is a modern choice, a unnatural one. If you really want to not harm other animals the only way is to eat nothing
There’s a difference between you and vegan culture. I’d rather talk to you.
This reads like an unpopular opinion that should be the popular opinion.
Most people who are vegan just don’t wanna eat meat
Youre the first vegan i dont hate😂
It’s a good conversation to have but on the specific topic of soybeans almost the entire process of farming and processing is mechanized. It’s one of the least labor intensive crops in the world.
Part of being vegan is not accepting animal and goods made from their exploitation as commodities. You are just not a vegan and describing non veganism. Which is fine. Just not the definition you’re looking for.
Your points are very well taken. Thanks for that nice write up!
If all vegans were like you the world would be a better place. You sound super dope to have a convo with about this topic.
I appreciate your post and respect your opinions expressed here. For me, all living beings are people. I support kind treatment of all living beings. I realize that I’m an imperfect being in an imperfect world, and so I do my very best to be as humane as I can. It seems that suffering is an inescapable aspect of organic life, yet I do my best to mitigate it whenever and wherever possible.
As others have commented here, the label of vegan can connotate dietary restrictions for medical reasons, yet it seems clear to me that the word vegan mainly means profound moral and ethical consideration within one’s consumerism.
I’m not sure if I label myself a vegan. I have bonded with four cats, for instance, who are now my dependents and who are obligate carnivores. I try to source their food as humanely as I can.
I haven’t studied anthropology extensively, yet I’ve learned enough to know that humans climbed to the top of the food chain over a span of millions of years, and we developed some nasty characteristics and traits in doing so. Now that we’ve been sitting up here for so long, it’s time for us to begin shedding our ruthlessness before we ultimately exploit, divide, and conquer ourselves and our world into oblivion.
I yearn for humanity to become benevolent stewards of ourselves, one another, and the world we inhabit. I yearn for a quantum leap in the evolution of human conscientiousness. I don’t believe it can happen by itself, passively. I believe we have to nurture it in ourselves purposefully, foster it in one another, and grow it together through effort and action. It’s so worth it. The children I teach deserve to inherit a world in which humanity is finally starting to boldly and overtly embrace conscientiousness and relinquish depravity.
Yes, there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism. Trying to limit that concept just to vegans so you can take a shot at them is odd.
It’s also a largely pointless argument. We all live in society and society is unfortunately lorded over by corrupt and abusive organizations that we are basically forced to be apart of. That in no way makes the small ways people try to improve things worthless or hypocritical or any of the other nonsense talking points people like going on about
I don’t think people realize how much slavery is involved with crops.
Chocolate companies are notorious for using child slavery and source their cacao beans unethically. The cashew nuts you see in the store? They had an acidic shell that irritates the hands. Someone had to crack that open for you by hand, and that person is only making cents a day. Someone suffered to produce a product for YOU.
I don’t hate vegans and I think that their reputation has mostly been ruined by those obnoxious ones. Majority seems cool. Honestly those people with the “carnivore diets” and try to be alpha males are worse. I just wish that people realize it’s not as simple as cutting out animal products, and that getting food sustainably through ethical means isn’t as easy as it sounds.
I agree that “vegan” leather is more harmful than regular leather. Leather is a byproduct of the meat industry and long lasting if taken care of well. Meanwhile those fake leather jackets will chip off in a few months and wind up in a landfill. Something that seems like progress can sometimes actually be making you go backwards.
After touring my local food clearance centre where big brands dump the stuff that didn’t work I can assure you, there is no such thing as ethics under capitalism. Vegans are just another demongraphic to be targetted.
Hi, fellow vegan here.
I do mostly agree with your arguments, there are a few things I wane bring up.
Being vegan is already a hard moral choice to make. The nitty gritty of sometimes stuff sometimes being ‘allowed’ and sometimes not is bringing this hardship into daily life. A clear line or moral code such as ‘I simply never eat meat or wear leather’, might be more easy on the brains. This is also the case for your friends or family.
To add to your human suffering argument, there are large inefficiencies in meat production. Most soybeans go to ‘meat production’ (even per person). So going vegan and not caring about origins still reduces human harm. But I do think most vegans also care about human suffering tbh, vegans are more likely to buy products from origins they know and biologically farmed food, if I need a product that’s only purchasable from afar (for me coconut milk), I do buy fair trade. To conclude: Ethical food is a grey scale, not a yes no question, vegans around me do try to minimize human harm.
I do honestly think that it can be cheaper to be vegan. If you replace meat with the required amount of beans being vegan is definitely cheaper, if you replace it with meat substitutes, it definitely isn’t (yet, if ever). But if you wish to replace it with beans, you need the time to cook, which is a large (semi-unrelated, as both problems in my eye stem from capitalism) problem for most working class people. As such I support your argument it might be a privilege, but eating meat more than twice a week is also a privilege, as eating meat twice a week satisfies all nutrition requirements. Then you don’t need to pay attention to anything else.
p.s. For everyone who is looking to reduce their intake and contribute to a better world but does not wish for most hardship, I give you this advice. Don’t say to yourself to not eat meat (or/and dairy), it might be easier to say to yourself to not buy meat in the supermarket. (This is of course assuming you do groceries).
This is a first for me, not gonna lie. A reasonable person who’s an ethical vegan.
You are not vegan if you perpertuate an industry that kills animals an literally wearing their skin/fur.
I am not gatekeeping this is just a fact per definition. So your “opinion” is not an opiniona t all since the definition proves you wrong.
The problem with this definition of vegan is that it doesnt emphasize the deontological grounding for veganism, that of granting non-human animals basic human rights. The consequence of this new definition is that anything that we wouldnt do to humans, we wouldnt do to animals either.
Yes on a consequential basis, eating or obtaining goods from a dumpster would be less morally problematic, however, this wouldnt make buying products “less” vegan. You can also argue that good from the money spent on the vegan products would out weigh the production cost by creating demand for that vegan alternative. So this isnt as clear cut as you would think. Veganism ignores the suffering of humans because it is ONLY about non human animals.
If you think that hunting isnt morally problematic for non human animals, then you would also believe hunting humans isnt morally problematic by extension of the definition I gave. Obviously no one would agree that hunting humans is morally acceptable, EVEN IF hunting a single human – per week or something – would lead to less overall suffering and strain on the environment. Therefore, NO, hunting is not ethical for veganism.
Veganism can absolutely be extremely cheap: grains, legumes, potatoes, etc. The abundance of animal products is a luxury in the first world. Home cooked meals are significantly healthier and cheaper than eating out, if you do not have time in your day to put some beans into a pressure cooker, then you have a massive issue with time management and ought to solve that because you are hurting yourself significantly. But even then, many fast food joints have vegan options. Also the victims you’re eating don’t care about your life issues, it doesnt matter to them if you have to work three jobs.
Buying a wool sweater from a thrift store isnt necessarily more ethical even from a consequential perspective similarly mentioned as above. What if someone else would have bought that wool sweater? And since there is no longer a wool sweater in store, they choose to buy a new one from amazon.
I wouldnt call you vegan because you clearly dont extend basic human rights to non human animals.
Agree 100%. Also, if your goal is to minimize suffering by exploitation, your best bet would be to try and buy local whenever you can. I know thats easier for some people than for others, because they may not live near a lot of ag, but maybe look into it.
It is an unpopular opinion whenever someone tries to redefine a word.
Vegans can act however they like, but the word means plant based diet.
You calling yourself a vegan is so weird here, why do you feel the need to label yourself with something you literally are not?
You are just ethical, that’s it. There is no special dietary label you fall under based on this post. Words have definitions for a reason.