I’m American. We’re pieces of shit in so many ways. Furlongs to the hogshead, obnoxious chauvinism, Dr. Phil. I get that. I’m not trying to make this a who is better thing. I just don’t understand how you guys put up with aristocrats needlessly sucking off the state for…tradition? What do you get out of those people? I feel as baffled as you probably feel about our gun “laws“
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We had multiple bloody revolutions over it, so i don’t really get how you think that all europeans support them.
Yes. Yes, we do. Because they are, and the only ones not knowing are themselves and some grannies knitting socks and sweaters to the royal family instead of to refugee organisations.
Edited to add: I have never been to another country because they have a queen/king that prompted me to go there. Saying that our king does so much for Sweden is complete bull. But his friend group use their connection to him to furter their interests, so the system lives on.
We don’t have aristocrats?
We have oligarchs who are like aristocrats, except instead of their great great whatever becoming rich by screwing over people, they just screw over people themselves
Aristocrats who actually get money from the state are very very very few. Most just have inherited wealth as much if not less than what you can have in the US. Normal aristocrats are simply rich people with a quirky family history
Why would you want to screw aristocrats over their millions, while you’re tolerating Bezos and Zuck screwing billions
What aristocrats? The aristocracies privileges began being removed closer to over 150 years ago and have been shut out from government structures long ago. All that is left is noble houses with fuck all power. All they have is their heraldic coat of arms and some land. They’re nothing in comparison to the rich business elite today.
Our Royal family bring in more money than they cost, not to mention the savings on not electing a president every 5 years or so.
Yes, we had revolutions and invented constitutions, and not only once. We had our reckoning. Today, we’ve rendered them so powerless that we generally don’t mind sticking them around. Yes, they are a bit ridiculous, but they also add flavour.
Not many European countries have a legally recognized aristocracy anymore.
In Austria, for example, the nobility and all its privileges were abolished in 1919, which also includes a prohibition on having the traditional von in one’s name. So, for example, Karl Habsburg – Lothringen referring to himself as Karl von Habsburg-Lothringen would mean he‘d be fined.
The Habsburg family itself was even banned from entering Austria until the 1960s.
But former noble families know who is among their circles even without that. If you are interested, the German noble families are listed in the Gotha, basically an encyclopedia of noble families and infos about them.
There‘s also knightly orders still operating in which lots of nobles are found, of course.
Overall, it’s just an informal network instead of any officially recognized status.
Do you realize America has aristocrats?! And that your Magas are also acting the same way (if not worse)? Doesn’t it baffle millions of American? Yes it does, just like European aristocracies does baffle millions of Europeans.
Do you realize that most European countries have a Republic? Because their ancestors fight for it? Republics where today’s aristocracy/nobility doesn’t mean anything? Their “titles” are only courtesy titles, it doesn’t worth anything and actually, most of decendants of aristocratic families live in poverty? Cause I know a great deal of them: their castles are almost in ruins and they relies on cheap food and second hands shop to dress their kids. Their kids spends their holidays trying to repear it or working as tour guide because they don’t have any servant or even money for actual holidaays.
Also, if you knew a little bit about current European monarchy, you’ll understand that a great deal of their population are openly hostile toward the monarchy and nobles/aristocrats or at least find them ridiculous. They are movement against it, protest, entire news papers about it. Sure, some do love them, many actually, but not the majority. The majority simply… don’t care.
Most European countries don’t have monarchies any more, and as far as I know, the UK is the only one where the nobility other than the monarch has a particular role in the political system. That being the House of Lords seats still reserved for peers who inherit their titles. That’s a small minority of seats in the House now.
If it were up to me as a British citizen I would get rid of the whole House of Lords and the monarchy but most people aren’t fussed and any government who is interested in the issue has many more urgent matters to deal with in their term of office.
In the UK, there are no “aristocrats needlessly sucking off the state”, indeed many are cash poor, but asset rich, they own a big house, but can’t fix the leaky roof. Many have businesses to raise cash.
The Royal Family pay income tax, but properties like Buckingham Palace, Windsor Castle are owned by the Crown Estates and maintained by them.
All our aristocrats were shot dead, sent to Siberia or exiled into Central / Western Europe in ’20s of the XX century.
So you should specify about which Europeans you talking about ?
I agree! That’s why I’m in the Republican Association who want to abolish the Royal family (peacefully of course) I think our king (who is 79 years old) should be king for the rest of his life and that he shouldn’t be replaced.
The Royal family is the one ones who get money from the state, aristocrats in general don’t get anything. You don’t even have to rich to be an aristocrat.
I don’t like our royal family. But I recognise a king with no power is far better than a president with too much power.
Aristocracy has no legal or institutional value in Italy since we became a Republic in 1948; we exiled our royal family until 2002, when they vowed loyalty to the Italian constitution.
Nobility still exist but titles are a matter of social courtesy, not legal. The state does not support nobles financially, but they’re often wealthy due to… well, generational wealth.
I think most europeans don’t care about their ancestors really. If you know you are related to some known historical figure sure.. but it’s not like you think they are cool, just because they are famous.
But some rich families are of cause related to the former nobel houses. Because real wealth is inherited, and the rich people in the 1600s were nobility. In Denmark there’s like 10 families like that. I know a few, but they don’t really care about the name.
Nah, it’s mostly just inherited wealth.
Should inheritance be scrapped? And do what with someones assets? Hand them over to the government upon death?
Other than a small handful of people in the royal family, they get nothing other than a title in their passport. I know a baroness. It has no perks other than the title itself.
Well yeah of course many Europeans do think that. There were whole revolutions about that very issue.
In the USA you had the “founding fathers”, in Europe we had the “nobles” (I do not include nobility of robe that came in way later).
That’s about it.
They’re just the old and very decaying version of the same you have with the ultrawealthy aristocracy that controls not only your country’s government, but has power outside of it too.
Our nobility doesn’t have an official status anymore since Thorbecke’s constitutional reform, though these people are obviously old money and their own social circle. They’re not inherently wealthy enough that they don’t need to work; many are lawyers, notaries, diplomats, civil servants, that kind of stuff. I know a couple via my work, totally normal people. A different social echelon, but mostly not snobby. Of course there are investment bankers and real estate moguls among them and they’re jerks but that comes with the job.
The modern aristocrats are the new money, and they’re far more greedy and haughty.
We know they are ridiculous, but most of the aristocracy are just normal people that happen to have a nobility title. There are some, though, that take insane amounts of money in agricultural subsidies because they have massive estates (like the Duke of Alba, the Duchess of Infantado, and three or four more).
Then there are the aristocrats that receive lots of subsidies from the Ministry of Culture to digitise their vast archives, or to help with the upkeep of their phenomenal art collections ammassed throughout the centuries that they manage through foundations (Fundación Casa de Alba, Fundación Casa Ducal de Medinaceli, and some others).
Again, it’s really important to not say “Europeans” and instead which countries you mean?
My country abolished all aristocracy titles, rights and privileges in 1918.
Nobility as an institution was completely abolished in 1945 in Hungary, all of their lands, wealth and properties were turned over to the public good. It is the reigning conservative government that sort of reversed that and started creating modern day feudal lords, this time without official titles.
In the UK they don’t get anything from the state. Farming subsidies are equally available to non-titled landowners, there are no tax privileges for having a title, etc.
What year do you think this is where unemployed aristocrats are walking around getting welfare?
If you mean monarchy perhaps you should start by learning that aristocracy ≠ monarchy.
If ancestors screwing over people means you somehow must be excluded from society or punished then perhaps you as an American should lead by example and go back to Europe while giving all your worldly possessions to whatever unfortunate your ancestors may have wronged.
I don’t have a problem with it. In the countries that I’m most familiar with (Finland & Sweden), the nobility lost its privileges long ago. The only benefit of being from a noble family nowadays is that having a certain surname can give you a bit of prestige in some instances, but that’s about it. It’s a part of our history, and as someone who enjoys history, I think it’s pretty cool when someone shares a name with a general who fought the Russians centuries ago.
The US has an old money aristocracy too, which is divided into Southern Aristocracy and Northeastern Aristocracy. Who do you think the founding fathers were, rural farmers? The Civil War was a power struggle between the Southern Aristocracy (who wanted to preserve the institution of slavery, the economic foundation of their reign) and the Northeastern one (who aligned themselves with the anti-slavery cause to weaken the Southern Aristocracy), with the latter coming out on top.
Just because they abandoned their distinctive Northeastern Elite and Aristocratic Southern accents post-WWII (as a chameleonic strategy to hide their existence as a social class), doesn’t mean they’re still not there. The Northeastern Aristocracy in fact still holds vast institutional power in US society to this day.
Not that the US elite consists exclusively of them, as there’s also the competing (but often semi-intertwined) nouveau riche elite that consists of the likes of Trump, Musk, Bezos, the 1980s yuppies, etc. If translated into the political field, the Northeastern Aristocracy controls the establishment faction of the Republican and Democrat parties, MAGA is an attempt by the nouveau riche elite to usurp power from the Northeastern Aristocracy (notice how they rail against ”Coastal Elites” while conveniently omitting the concept of Corporate Elites), and progressive Democrats are a ”containment valve” type counterculture simulacra where purity testing and focus on culture wars prevents any kind of class unity against either variety of elite.
Granted, the Northeastern Elite has no actual legal status as an aristocracy under the US constitution, and their heraldry (indeed, they used to have those too before WWII) likewise has no official status, but all that’s splitting hairs.
Most aristocrats today are often times not really rich anymore and don’t live in palaces. A ton of the castles all over Europe are mostly run by the countries today in heritage trusts/landmark protection schemes since aristocracy was abolished in large parts across Europe and has remained mostly as a courtesy title only in modern times – meaning no special privilege, no power, no right to tax the peasants to even finance those big old mansions.
So a lot of former big landowners that suddenly had no more peasants to tax and no more vast swathes of land simply closed up shop, moved into more modest villas and the big old country houses and castles have been handed over to the states.
There are exceptions to this and in England for example there is still the House of Lords as a political body and some aristocratic families holding on to their estates with the help of tourism, running the huge mansions as hotels or renting them out as filming locations, etc. But that idea of huge land owning nobles is as gone as the big plantations in the US. The advent of workers rights, voting and democracy didaway with all of that quite a while ago already.
All in all in most parts of Europe aristocracy is completely irrelevant and has no bearing on the day to day life. Some countries like their ceremonial figure heads and as long as they stay ceremonial it’s fine I guess. But it’s not like we live in medieval times and I have to pretend the local baron is God’s gift to humanity and worship the earth he walks on.
But to come back to your original question…I guess they have the same right to inherit stuff as everybody else. Their stuff is just a bit bigger and more expensive. Plenty of rich people inheriting big houses from their family all over the world…doesn’t make a lot of difference if it’s been in the family for 100 or 1000 years. Lord Muffinguff Flusterington VIII has the same right to inherit Flusterington Manor as you and I can inherit a little 2 bed house in a small town.
Its existence is controversial in Europe as well.
Let me offer Belgium as an example.
The monarchy itself in Belgium is slightly controversial at times, mostly when talking about some past kings (Leopold II and III). Because of the acts of previous kings, the monarchy in Belgium has become “nearly” strictly for show. Some even want the full end of the nobility system.
The same goes for the other nobility. They have no hard power, yet both king and nobility still wield a lot of soft power, and this is the current main cause of the controversy.
Often, noble families still have a lot of influence and money and marry into the royal family. Take the family d’Udekem d’Acoz, for example. One of the oldest noble families in Belgium. The current queen is from this family, and they provided political leaders in the past as well.
This interaction between nobles and politics is generally seen as nepotism and mistrusted. Many people in Belgium wish for the end of this system.
This mistrust is used by the far right party in Flanders (North-Belgium). One of the goals is the separation of Belgium, and attacking the unifying factor of the nobility is one of their tactics.
The monarchy and nobility are not in any immediate danger of disappearing, but its future role is still often being discussed.
Personal note, the easiest way to set off my sweet grandmother is to mention the previous king Albert II.
She loathes him.
yup. absurd.
to answer your well-framed question: How to understand
how we in europe put up with aristocrats sucking off the state? What do we get out of those people?
We here are as baffled (about USAs gun “laws“ & kid killing cars as well)
Well, just as with the not-so-good ol USA,
those in power are super adept in keeping the plebs entertained.
maybe it’s a local ball team, maybe its the tsunami of nonsense on social media, but deffo the news
(the news, the all-owned-by one or two, those kiss-ass lads to the multi-national corporate news…)
we lived in UK (EU now), even those against the twits, have no idea of just how bad UKs head-twit is…
https://www.reddit.com/r/AbolishTheMonarchy/comments/xad97a/get_to_know_king_charles_iii_megathread/
upChucks revered mother was no better, her answer to every single crisis, was always to do nothing
(nicely portrayed in theCrown, in an exchange with her drunk sister.)
That an equivalent royal in belgium, today spoke out against the atrocities in gaza, tells me / tells us all we need to know about MOST of the do-nothing tip-top benefit scroungers.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AlJazeera/comments/1m7hj36/belgian_king_denounces_situation_in_gaza_as_a/
My heart sinks whenever our dutch royal fucks up royally.
I suppose you refer to the monarchy. First of all many countries in Europe are a republic. Here in The Netherlands there is a monarchy. Although it has very limited power. There is a continious debate if we should continue with it or not. However we do need a head of state and the alternative, a elected president can be equally bad. Your country is just one example how a populist with to much money can become president.
Most people dont care about the monarchy, since their political power is very limited. The represent our country on an international stage, visiting other heads of states. The king/queen is often raised knowing how to work in an diplomatic environment. Foreigners often like to be invited at one of the castles of the royal family. If we should believe the newspapers they contribute to the Dutch economy. And there are no guarantees a elected president is any better.
However, criticism is common of our royal family. Making fun of our king is a common theme in tv shows. Sometimes its just banter, sometimes its a bit more serious because they are weird sometimes.
As for the extended family. They have to earn their money themselves. Obviously they are often well connected, but there is no money spend there.
I think you have a very narrow view of Europe and are generalizing everyone. Most countries in Europe don’t have a royal family or aristocracies anymore. In Portugal there is no aristocracy or kings. Of course there are people from old money related to the former aristocracy, but that applies to everywhere in the world.
I don’t think most Europeans love royal families and the aristocracy, certainly not in my country.
I think you need to catch up on European history, because most of us have overthrown our monarchies since 1312, and even had violent revolutions about it.
Republics don’t recognize nobilities. But we do have people of noble or aristocratic descent; it carries no legal recognition. And many are middle class or poor.
We do think they are ridiculous, why do you think we got rid of them? There are very few European countries where the ”nobility” still has political significance or economic might.
The former nobility hold some land and have neat little heraldry, but they are poor compared to actual businessmen. They are just smug inbred assholes living in moldy mansions.
Our aristocracy was killed or forced into emigration in the XIX and XX centuries. We don’t even have oligarchs unlike many other CEE counties.
I mean, to be fair, the only difference between our aristocracy and your old money rich people is that they don’t have official titles. That’s it.
Most European countries had (more or less formally) abolished aristocracy and monarchy by the mid-1950s.
Liechtenstein, Monaco (maybe the Vatican), Spain, UK, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, and Sweden are the only ones that come to my mind right now – and in the vast majority of those, there are no special rights reserved to the aristocracy, it’s mostly just representation/entertainment, I think.
>What do you get out of those people?
What do you get out of the likes of Warren Buffett, Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Rupert Murdoch etc. – none of those were elected either and they’re immensely more powerful than any modern European aristocrats (unlike Asian or Arabian ones).
What kind of question is this? We don’t hate the noble that is a truck driver, or a person that runs a business and happen to have a noble name. On the other hand Dr. Phil is fake and most USA Americans are ignorami that love to have an opinion without knowing a practical fact. As for your gun laws, suit yourselves! As for tomatoes, JUST IN: Mexico Cuts Off Tomato Trade With U.S. — Canada Wins Big! Suit yourselves!
>I’m American.
That much was obvious
>I just don’t understand how you guys put up with aristocrats needlessly sucking off the state for…tradition?
Pretty rich considering very, very few aristocrats actually get any real funding from the state and you’re from a country where every single special interest group can buy a loophole in the law.
> Do Europeans not think your aristocracies are kind of ridiculous?
We don’t think of them at all. They are barely visible in the public discourse, apart from our shitstain former royal family, who sometimes try to sue for reparations.
Most of the time they are only relevant as owners of historic palaces and thus get public funding or tax rebates to upkeep their mansions. That’s all. They would get rebates for the upkeep anyway, since it’s tied to ownership and noble titles have no legal value here.
Crazy how so many Europeans live in denial. Aristocrats might have lost their legal rights but they still dominate all upper echelons of society.
“At least their castles and mansions have leaky roofs”… dear lord what a cope.