I (43M) am a dog trainer and mainly work with reactive/aggressive dogs. My SIL (39F) and BIL (46M) have two Bichons, who are both poorly trained and dog-aggressive. A few months ago, SIL and BIL got a Presa Canario puppy, Mia.
When I first heard this, I was horrified, as Presas are not beginner dogs—they are extremely powerful with a high prey drive, and often dog- and human-aggressive. One of my dogs is a Presa cross, and her training is basically a full time job in itself. So I offered to help train Mia—mainly because they have two young kids (6F and 11F)—but they declined.
Mia is now 6 months old and dog-aggressive (including toward the Bichons), completely untrained, too strong to be kept under control on leash, and has started snapping at the kids. SIL asked me to train her, so I took a couple of weeks off work to help out.
Mia’s very smart and we quickly built a great rapport, but BIL and SIL were just not engaged with the process. BIL regularly argued with me about my methods, while SIL laughed off safety concerns I raised about all three dogs. They both found it difficult to stop yelling at Mia, and reacted badly when I told them not to use choke chains or prong collars with her. I’m pretty used to this kind of thing, since dog training is fundamentally about human training, but it still got on my nerves since I was effectively working for free.
After a week of training, they decided it would be cool to leave the dogs alone with the kids and a 14-year-old babysitter. I had repeatedly told them never to leave kids unsupervised around any of their dogs due to the bite risk, so when I found out I was pissed.
I asked if they had thought about what would happen if someone got bitten, and SIL said that’s what the training was for. I asked, ‘What training, the training neither of you can be bothered with?’ and BIL said they’d hired me specifically so they could get a break from it. I said they hadn’t hired me, I was doing it for free because I was scared for their kids and dogs, and BIL replied that if my training had done so little his kids were still in danger then clearly I was a shit trainer. I said that’s fine, I won’t train her then, and began to leave. BIL said I was being fucking ridiculous, so I said no, what’s fucking ridiculous is that they would bring a literal fighting dog into their house when they can’t even housetrain the dogs they had. I left, and didn’t do any more training with Mia.
SIL has since reached out to ask me to keep training Mia, even offering to pay. I explained I didn’t want to be held responsible if they didn’t fully commit to the training and someone got hurt. However, I’m starting to feel like an asshole, because I don’t want the kids or dogs to get hurt, and I don’t want Mia to be put down if she bites someone. My partner (44M) also really wants me to go back, as he’s worried about his nieces and doesn’t want his sister and partner arguing. AITA?
Comments
^^^^AUTOMOD Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read this before contacting the mod team
I (43M) am a dog trainer and mainly work with reactive/aggressive dogs. My SIL (39F) and BIL (46M) have two Bichons, who are both poorly trained and dog-aggressive. A few months ago, SIL and BIL got a Presa Canario puppy, Mia.
When I first heard this, I was horrified, as Presas are not beginner dogs—they are extremely powerful with a high prey drive, and often dog- and human-aggressive. One of my dogs is a Presa cross, and her training is basically a full time job in itself. So I offered to help train Mia—mainly because they have two young kids (6F and 11F)—but they declined.
Mia is now 6 months old and dog-aggressive (including toward the Bichons), completely untrained, too strong to be kept under control on leash, and has started snapping at the kids. SIL asked me to train her, so I took a couple of weeks off work to help out.
Mia’s very smart and we quickly built a great rapport, but BIL and SIL were just not engaged with the process. BIL regularly argued with me about my methods, while SIL laughed off safety concerns I raised about all three dogs. They both found it difficult to stop yelling at Mia, and reacted badly when I told them not to use choke chains or prong collars with her. I’m pretty used to this kind of thing, since dog training is fundamentally about human training, but it still got on my nerves since I was effectively working for free.
After a week of training, they decided it would be cool to leave the dogs alone with the kids and a 14-year-old babysitter. I had repeatedly told them never to leave kids unsupervised around any of their dogs due to the bite risk, so when I found out I was pissed.
I asked if they had thought about what would happen if someone got bitten, and SIL said that’s what the training was for. I asked, ‘What training, the training neither of you can be bothered with?’ and BIL said they’d hired me specifically so they could get a break from it. I said they hadn’t hired me, I was doing it for free because I was scared for their kids and dogs, and BIL replied that if my training had done so little his kids were still in danger then clearly I was a shit trainer. I said that’s fine, I won’t train her then, and began to leave. BIL said I was being fucking ridiculous, so I said no, what’s fucking ridiculous is that they would bring a literal fighting dog into their house when they can’t even housetrain the dogs they had. I left, and didn’t do any more training with Mia.
SIL has since reached out to ask me to keep training Mia, even offering to pay. I explained I didn’t want to be held responsible if they didn’t fully commit to the training and someone got hurt. However, I’m starting to feel like an asshole, because I don’t want the kids or dogs to get hurt, and I don’t want Mia to be put down if she bites someone. My partner (44M) also really wants me to go back, as he’s worried about his nieces and doesn’t want his sister and partner arguing. AITA?
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our voting guide here, and remember to use only one judgement in your comment.
OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I refused to continue training Mia, which is putting the kids and other dogs at risk if she bites one of them. Mia would also be put down if that happened, so I feel like I’m abandoning all of them to my in-laws’ poor dog training.
Help keep the sub engaging!
Don’t downvote assholes!
Do upvote interesting posts!
Click Here For Our Rules and Click Here For Our FAQ
Subreddit Announcements
Follow the link above to learn more
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.
NTA. The safest thing you can do is STAY OUT OF IT! They are not taking your advice, and they are risking the safety of their children and dogs. They either need to hire someone they will listen to or rehome the dog. You continuing to try to train the dog will just prolong the danger.
NTA and your BIL is both awful and completely deluded.
NTA. Dog training, in my experience, has consisted of the trainer coming an hour a week and telling us what to do with a brief demonstration then leaving. We then practice it for the week until the next session, where we demonstrate our dog’s progress. The largest thing our trainer emphasized was that dogs are good with consistency, so the training will NOT work if even one person in the family is letting the dogs bad behaviour slide. I just hope they don’t get rid of the dog when the cute puppy phase wears off because of their own unwillingness to learn.
NTA. I know you
wouldwill feel responsibleifwhen the kids or the other dogswereare attacked” but whose fault will it actually be? Believe me, friend, it will not be your fault. If the owners of an aggressive fighting breed dog refuse to work with the dog and leave it alone with their young children, they will be at fault.In your shoes I’d report the dog to animal control. Better upset owners than a dead child.
Tell them to find another trainer, you gave up time and money to help them and BIL pissed your knowledge and free advice up the wall by being a turd thinking he knows better. Shit will hit the fan if one of those dogs turn on them or god forbid the children. People like them shouldn’t own those kind of animals when they have no idea of how to look after them. NTA. They are massively.
If they are willing to pay, consider referring another trainer to them. That way the dog still gets the training it needs, while you remain un-involved.
NTA. If your inlaws don’t commit to reinforcing the training (which they have shown that they won’t) then it’s a moot point.
NTA they aren’t interested in training. They only want a completely trained dog which requires zero effort on their part. No matter how this turns out, they will blame you. Anything the dog does wrong will be because you did or did not train the dog. They will accept zero responsibility. Steer clear.
NTA. You might want to, if it’s feasible for your own household, offer to adopt Mia and save her from those morons.
NTA. You have graciously agreed to train their reactive dog for free, and they can’t be bothered to keep it up at home. Even if you DO get the dog to no longer be human/dog aggressive with YOU, it might still be human/dog aggressive with them because the dog already knows it can get away with it since they aren’t applying the same techniques.
I would only agree to continue training the dog if they did these things.
otherwise, not your monkeys, not your circus.
I am genuinely terrified, though, for all 3 of those dogs. I hope they open their eyes and listen to you because one of those dogs bites someone, or each other. Especially since you’ve said Mia is really smart, so you know she has the potential to be an INCREDIBLE dog if they actually put in the effort.
Just know that if anything happens, it is not your fault for refusing to train her. It’s on them as the owners for failing to do their research and train their own dogs.
NTA.
You’re 100% correct. It’s the owner’s responsibility to commit to the training or it won’t work.
I really wish training was mandatory before purchasing large dogs.
We sent our GSD for a 21 day intensive training before our eldest was born and they have grown up together. He’s 6 and they are now 6 and 3.5. He leaves their toys alone if he can recognize their scent on it. He’s absolutely wonderful with them both.
They 100% should be paying you for your expertise, or someone else if they aren’t listening to you. I absolutely hate when a family takes family for free when they have a trade. It’s a pet peeve. This is your livelihood and they will trash your name. Make them sign a contract of their responsibilities just like any other client and commit to the training refresher manual.
The dog should be going back to the breeder if they cannot look after it. It’s unfair to be put down because of the owners not being able to manage it.
You are NTA and you should not train the dogs.
The situation is dangerous. It can not be made less dangerous by you and may possibly be more dangerous because these two dingdongs will pretend that since you’re training the dog they can make horrible choices regarding their dogs and children.
You can’t help people who are so stubborn and foolish. Do not believe them if they say they are going to behave differently this time. They are not. They will not make lasting changes.
>My partner (44M) also really wants me to go back, as he’s worried about his nieces and doesn’t want his sister and partner arguing
“Being worried about your nieces is valid… You should be worried, this is a really dangerous situation. But you’ve had 6 months to try to explain those concerns to your sister. Until she wraps her head around the situation and takes responsibility for her large part in causing it — including the part where she is actively putting her children in danger every day — there is no possible resolution.”
NTA. Frankly, the only way I would even consider doing something with the dog again is if they paid you for the work you have already done (as an indicator that they are taking this seriously) and they both sign a strict contract about what behavior you expect from them moving forward (which absolutely should contain prohibitions on what supplies they can use on her and who they are allowed to leave her with).
I highly doubt they would be willing to do that, but then you can point to it every time they bring it up again (e.g. “You know what you have to do if you want me to train her…”)
NTA. Mia needs to go to a home that’s equipped to handle her.
Absolutely NTA and do not go back.
As you said, dog training is also really human training, and they are not putting in the work themselves which means it will never work. And you know what will inevitably happen – because they aren’t doing the right thing, one of those dogs will either hurt one of the others or they will hurt a human. And when that happens, they will point the finger straight at you. It will be your fault that their dogs are still aggressive. It will be your fault that their dogs haven’t gotten better. They have already tried to paint you as a “shit trainer” because of their own shortcomings.
You cannot fix them. They are bad dog owners and frankly, should have their dogs removed for the sake of the dogs and the kids in the home. Don’t give them a moment more of your time, no matter if they pay you or not, it will only blow up in your face.
NTA OP, on the professional level, your doing your in laws a huge favor. And they’re completely disregarding the professional opinion of someone who actively works with pets that have similar issues that their pups are dealing with. I myself have a small business selling handmade soaps and lotions, and recently started working with another small business that sells handmade candles. And for clients it doesn’t matter if they’re family or not. But I’ve got a 3 strikes and we’re done working together policy. And here they have hit 3 strikes. 1, being completely disregarding any and all training tips and techniques. 2, you’re helping them for free and they’re completely trash talking you as the professional, when THEY’RE the ones not listening to you. And finally 3, being the biggest one. You have repeatedly told them NOT to leave their aggressive and reactive dogs home alone with children because of valid safety concerns that the ADULT humans in the house hold are NOT taking seriously, and were absolutely prepared to blame you and “your shitty” techniques as to if an accident happen. When it would be their fault for not taking you seriously. And if we want to be extra, here’s strike 4, still having the audacity to work for them FOR FREE (initially before SIL reached out offering to restart services with payment). HARD no, stick to your guns OP. Protect yourself from the liability of your in laws trying to blame you for their wrong doings (and in turn possibly ruin your business reputation by blasting “your shitty training” online and the potential bad review going viral and hurting your entire business as a whole if your the owner of said dog training company)
NTA. There are plenty of trainers around. Let them hire one.
NTA. People that stupid shouldn’t be allowed pets… their poor children will suffer for it. It’s not your responsibility, you’ve gone above and beyond and I can’t believe they didn’t offer your any payment when you took time off work to help them! Advise they get another trainer and stay out of it.
NTA. Christ!!! What a completely irresponsible pair of dog owners. If anything happens this would be solely on them and would be their responsibility.
I looked into dog training a while ago and it would be an hour a week to train the owners, then the owners practice that all week. Dog trainer comes back the next week and does more. It doesn’t sound like they’ve grasped that this is in fact a them problem and not something you can do for them as they can’t be bothered.
Maybe you could suggest a different dog trainer they could employ? Maybe a person removed from the family might have more success, although I doubt it.
NTA !!! But plsssss contact animal control. This will NOT end well!! At some point the dogs will react and someone is going to be hurt.
That’s the problem with free help. Many people consider it worthless because free. If they had paid you they would have been more careful
NTA – I have a 75 pound Boxer. She is my third Boxer. All 3 of them have been put in SERIOUS training and all the trainers have told me that it’s less about training the dogs as it is training the humans…and they aren’t wrong.
You can only train a dog so much. If their humans aren’t reinforcing the training, the training won’t stick…it’s that simple.
Your SIL and BIL are lazy and thought that you would do all the work and their dog would magically behave…that’s not how it works.
NTA – stay out of it now. You tried, they failed. Now it’s up to them to decide how to deal with their untrained and aggressive animals. Don’t put yourself in a situation where YOU could be blamed for any mishaps. Just stay away. Not your circus, not your monkeys.
When I fostered, our girl had some reactivity to other leashed dogs. The rescue has an in house trainer and 100% they were training me more than the dog. It did not take even one session for me to fully realize that
Your inlaws need to read about the Diane Whipple case in San Francisco. It has been over twenty years, but San Fransciscans still remember it. It is horrifying what those dogs can do in a brief second of time. If anything happens to anyone, there will be no sympathy for the owners, they will never come back from it.
This is some of the most irresponsible things I have ever heard of when they already have dogs, and for god’s sake, children.
Here’s the short version of the case:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Diane_Whipple
NTA. Avoid doing business with relatives whenever possible.
Also a dog trainer here. I regularly tell people “I train people to train their dogs.”
Because it acknowledges that they have to take responsibility. You’re right on staying out of this.
I have a feeling part of he problem is that you are family. Never do business with family. There is a weird disconnect, and people just don’t respect a family member like they would a stranger. Offer them the name and phone number of a couple of trainers you feel are good at it that are in their area.
NTA but you might have excessive liability now.
what would you do if one of your paying customers behaved like this? how would you deal with the risk of being blamed for incidents involving those dogs?
I would hope you have liability insurance, which includes the costs of legal defense, but probably doesn’t include cover for similar activities you perform outside the business. so right now if Mia does something unfortunate and they blame you, you probably don’t have any insurance, and even winning a court case is expensive.
as such I would suggest taking SIL up on the paid training idea, take them on as clients, including all your normal forms and waivers, keep all the normal records, including extra notes if they are ignoring your advice. you will be protecting the dog, the children, and your insurance coverage.
NTA but you should report the dog. If it kills one of these children it really won’t matter if you were right to walk away from training it. The SIL & BIL are reckless fools.
I agree with the other commenters that you should not go back and try to train their dogs. There is no point in doing so – your inlaws are determined to undermine your work. I want to add another suggestion. You should send an email to them specifically spelling out what you have told us: that the dogs are dangerous and that they are not controlling them properly. If one of the dogs injures someone I would not be the slightest bit surprised if they don’t blame you for inadequate training. You need to establish that you were not able to train their dog because of the in-laws lack of involvement.
NTA
I cannot stand pets – especially dogs. That said, these folks are absolutely moronic in their irresponsible nonchalance about their animals. Even my dum ass knows that if the trainer’s lessons are not reinforced, the training is worthless.
Keep dealing with these abusive l AHs and their stupifity for the safety of the children and the smaller dogs. WTH!
NTA. They’ve already demonstrated that they feel no responsibility in training their own dog, or being trained to train her. She’s going to hurt someone if she stays in that home. The sooner you call someone to report the situation, the better her chances of not being put down.
You should go take that dog, this is an accident waiting to happen smh, I can’t stand when people like this get these kind of dogs and don’t want to do the training they need smh
NTA, these idiots shouldn’t have a single dog let alone 3. Dog training is also human training. The humans need to change their behaviors so the dog will change theirs and it’s kind of a full time deal, if they enforce the training only sometimes, it’s not going to work. If they don’t understand or care, that’s a them problem. I’d stay far away bc they’ll absolutely throw you under the bus.
NTA. I actually don’t like dogs that much and it’s pretty much because of dog people like this. My family has an American Bully that’s highly reactive but if they just put in the consistency she could be trained into a very well behaved dog. She’s smart and food driven and I’ve gotten pretty far with training her until my family ruins it. She’s aggressive towards other dogs and children and barks at everything, it’s not her fault I don’t like her, but I just don’t.
I often get mocked because you can’t “train” a cat (I love cats), but the difference is life and death between an untrained dog and cat for the animal and the person. Also my cat pees and poops in a box, I don’t leave it around a apartment complex for everyone else to deal with. I don’t have a dog because I know I can’t provide the quality of life a dog deserves. A dog needs space, stimulation, exercise, and routine. I’d say a majority of owners don’t provide their dog with proper care, and your in-laws are not good pet owners (or parents) and will 100% even if a accident happens now, pin it on you. It will be “You didn’t train him well” or “You quit helping us and this happened” I 100% guarantee you this.
Nope, not the AH……. Let them go to a trainer outside of you, since they are now willing to pay you, let them pay someone else.
I have a dear close friend who is a dog trainer & he says the same thing you mentioned……Owners need to be in attendance & trained themselves…… because the dog will respond accordingly to the trainer & be butt sh*tt disobedient & just as unruly toward the owner…….. if they aren’t involved & learning from the trainer.
Soooooo I say let them find a trainer or if you know some trainers perhaps you can suggest a couple of them.
If they have a trainer “working” with their dog when it attacks someone, the trainer will also be sued in civil court.
It is very smart of you to wash your hands of this, defending yourself in court when a fighting dog you have trained kills someone will be a life changing event.
A barely trained Presa and a SIX YEAR OLD CHILD?!?? Are your in-laws delusional, or do they want to get their children maimed or even killed?!?? Is there any way you can take the dog? I don’t see any scenario where this ends well unless Mia is in a home with someone who has experience with the breed.
Don’t go back. These trashbags would sue you if someone got bitten. Can’t handle the two unruly large dogs I have, let’s add another even larger aggressive one! Bloody idiots….
Train your nieces to stay away from them.
the only thing you can do is hope they don’t get bit, OP. BIL and SIL are obviously not the brightest crayons in the box, and that’s super unfortunate but isn’t your problem anymore. you’ve tried your best.
NTA. If do decide to, demand back pay in addition to the continued pay for training. They saw you as free labor to do something they just didn’t feel like doing.
Please, please. Quit helping them. You have done enough. There could be serious repercussions for you.
Your partner can help his sister.
Let them hire a trainer. They may take it more seriously if someone else is telling them they have to step up and be involved in the training in order for it to be successful.
NTA
Could you be in any way legally liable in the future, or named in a lawsuit for having provided training to this dog?
Would your InLaws be petty or foolish enough to come after you legally, if they get their kids or babysitter bitten?
You are being set up for an exceptionally horrific situation. The absurdity of your in laws is crazy!
You already know what is going to happen. Anyone who knows anything about dogs can appreciate the severity of the animal’s attack in this environment- if the puppy attacks a babysitter, the other 2 dogs will react and it will be a free for all in a room of children. Someone may die.
I’m so sorry that they’re putting you in this situation. In your shoes, I would not continue to work with the puppy because that gives everyone a false sense of security. I would insist immediately that your in laws purchase a kennel for the puppy, and have your nieces/nephews promise to call you if they are left alone with the puppy not in its kennel.
I’d also have a talk with someone at the local animal control. That breed is considered dangerous, and they are are responsible for reinforcing their yard and home to prevent risk to random neighbors.
This situation will not end well if you do nothing, and you know that. Again, they suck balls for putting you into this situation- I hope you do what you can so they don’t end up on the news. 😔
NTA- it’s why I stopped training dogs. They are responsible. Perhaps you can try to recommend a trainer to them so you have done something and are not personally involved. Sometimes it’s easier to listen to someone who’s not family. Maybe a little humility and embarrassment would help them get the picture.
NTA, and it’s unfortunate you have found yourself caught up in this shitshow. The dog will likely bite someone and be destroyed.
Genuine question though – who is breeding these types of dogs, and why? Who in hell needs a ‘fighting’ dog? Are they fit for any other purpose?
Explain to them that you don’t train dogs, but that you train the owners of the dog.
No, and you’re going to get sued if you’re not careful because they’re going to blame you when that dog does bite someone which is a when not if.
Get an umbrella policy ASAP.
>My partner (44M) also really wants me to go back, as he’s worried about his nieces and doesn’t want his sister and partner arguing.
I am so tired of seeing people get punished for other people’s asshole behavior. Your partner is being an asshole. I would not even listen to this nonsense from a partner.
NTA – as you said, it’s as much about training the people as much as the dog. I’ve had dogs all my life, and my family has had dogs going back generations. Training is about consistency. Everyone has to be on board with all stages of the training. This is not a dog your in-laws should have got and it’s a recipe for disaster.