English is not my first language, so please, forgive me for any mistakes and expressions that don’t make as much sense in english.
So, me 46M am a lawyer. In my country, you go straight into the degree you want once you get out of high school and pass a test. During college, I met this friend, also 46M. We were in the same classes and got along greatly for years. We know each other for about 28 years now. He was one of my groomsmen at my wedding.
After I graduated, I did a 2 year postgraduate degree while I worked. My friend always said that experience was better than a diploma. I never minded it since he never pressed it. When I met my wife, 43F, she was just starting at the firm I worked at. We hit it off pretty well and started dating soon after. 3 years after I finished my postgraduate program, I started my masters. My wife and I started to plan on opening our own law firm around this time, seeing as she was also pushing for her postgraduate.
Some years later, we finally managed to open our firm. The friend in question was there at the opening party for the firm and seemed happy for me at the time. Some years went by and, when I was around 38, I finally got my doctorate. Now, 8 years later, I’m a very good family/contract lawyer (even if I say so myself).
Now, to the main issue of the post. Last weekend, mine and my wife’s friends were around at our house, having a little barbecue. Some time close to the end of our get together, this friend asked me how much was my hourly rate, because he wanted to start going the independent route. I told him the value (kinda high, but again, I know I’m worth it), and he said I charged too much for my services. I said something among the lines of: “When you’re as qualified as I am, you can charge the same or even higher.”
He was kinda silent/uncomfortable and the party kinda died after that. My wife talked to me yesterday saying that some people thought the tone of my comment was kinda rude, even if I didn’t mean it, and that I should talk to him. I didn’t want to get seen as passive-aggressive with my response, I just answered his question. Am I wrong? Should I apologize?
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English is not my first language, so please, forgive me for any mistakes and expressions that don’t make as much sense in english.
So, me 46M am a lawyer. In my country, you go straight into the degree you want once you get out of high school and pass a test. During college, I met this friend, also 46M. We were in the same classes and got along greatly for years. We know each other for about 28 years now. He was one of my groomsmen at my wedding.
After I graduated, I did a 2 year postgraduate degree while I worked. My friend always said that experience was better than a diploma. I never minded it since he never pressed it. When I met my wife, 43F, she was just starting at the firm I worked at. We hit it off pretty well and started dating soon after. 3 years after I finished my postgraduate program, I started my masters. My wife and I started to plan on opening our own law firm around this time, seeing as she was also pushing for her postgraduate.
Some years later, we finally managed to open our firm. The friend in question was there at the opening party for the firm and seemed happy for me at the time. Some years went by and, when I was around 38, I finally got my doctorate. Now, 8 years later, I’m a very good family/contract lawyer (even if I say so myself).
Now, to the main issue of the post. Last weekend, mine and my wife’s friends were around at our house, having a little barbecue. Some time close to the end of our get together, this friend asked me how much was my hourly rate, because he wanted to start going the independent route. I told him the value (kinda high, but again, I know I’m worth it), and he said I charged too much for my services. I said something among the lines of: “When you’re as qualified as I am, you can charge the same or even higher.”
He was kinda silent/uncomfortable and the party kinda died after that. My wife talked to me yesterday saying that some people thought the tone of my comment was kinda rude, even if I didn’t mean it, and that I should talk to him. I didn’t want to get seen as passive-aggressive with my response, I just answered his question. Am I wrong? Should I apologize?
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I do believe my frasing and tone of voice while saying it was a bit rude, seeing as my wife has told me more then once to pay more attention to how I say things, I believe I could be in the wrong here
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Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.
I dont see how your comment is in any way negative. You’re backing up why you charge what you do and is solely based on your own qualifications.
NTA why did he ask a question and get mad at the answer? It’s not easy to get where you got in life and your defense wasn’t rude at all.
NAH. Sometimes words come off differently than we meant them, especially to different audiences or individuals. You weren’t trying to make a dig at him, but the way the comment could be interpreted came off like that. For your friend, I can definitely see how it came off as little bit of a dig at him. For you, I can definitely see how you were just being honest and trying to make a little joke to offset it. I would just apologize and make it known you weren’t trying to do anything malicious.
Miscommunication is the root of most conflicts lol.
NTA I took it as you were commenting on how experienced and educated you are, not saying he isn’t paid the same because he doesn’t have the same experience.
It would all depend on the type of friendship you have with this person and the real tone odd your vice.
If you two are not the type to joke around with each other and you said it without laughing. Id say yta.
Rewording it a little bit might have helped it seem a little less arrogant (not that your qualifications don’t warrant confidence)
Something along the lines of “I feel that rate is fair based upon my experience and my clients seem to agree with me.”
NAH. I think your friend made a rude comment. I think you were a bit rude/blunt back. Its just a tiny road bump in your friendship, Im sure. Right now no one is an asshole.
I feel like it’s all in the tone because yes, you are very qualified and have your own business, ergo you can charge whatever you want. But your friend is also qualified as a lawyer (maybe not as much as you but he also has a ton of experience) so if he opens his own firm he can charge whatever he considers is a good balance between his worth and market value.
Personally I would say NTA but talk to your friend and tell him you didn’t mean to imply he wasn’t qualified, just that your prices adjust to your own value and the market one and he should do the same. A lot of people actually see themselves as “less worthy” while others know their value. If he doesn’t see his value, reassure him that he is good enough.
NTA you didn’t say your friends is less intelligent, you said they were less qualified and in a field like law I would always always always expect the person with the extra qualifications to be more expensive.
NTA Honestly I don’t think it was his place to criticize your rates if your firm is doing perfectly fine with getting business. His unsolicited opinion was rude in the first place when it was him that asked for the info. It’s not like your were randomly bragging about how much you’re making. If he doesn’t want to charge those rates going independent then that’s his choice but he doesn’t get to tell you how to run your firm. All you did was give justification for your rates after he rudely questioned it.
YTA, as you pushed your buddy down whilst lifting yourself up on their expense.
The correct way is to say something like “Sure, that’s a high rate. Then again, I work with pretty complex cases. Customers are willing to pay top dollar for advice, as the stakes are high.” The point is not what _you_ think you are worth, it’s that your _customers_ think your advice is worth whatever you are biling them.
NTA for the essence of what you said was true, and you were likely responding to the tone that he presented by saying you charge too much.
However, I don’t think what you said had the intended effect becuase YOUR tone came across as basically just putting him in his place by implying you’re better than him. And yes, qualifications are one thing, but actually being ‘good’ at something and having experience is important as well. It’s not all about your schooling.
You could have taken the high road by something like ‘I realize it may sound high to you, however there’s a lot at play when you own your own business. As well, w are very qualified to provide xyz services at that rate. I’d be happy to chat further if you like’.
NAH–just a couple of people rubbing each other the wrong way, with neither having any intention to annoy the other.
The difference between experience and education is just that: A difference. Education gives you more theoretical knowledge and a broader scope of ideas; experience gives you more practical knowledge and understanding of the clientele and the day-to-day workings of a job. Neither is really better than the other; they’re just useful in different ways. Depending on the career, education may be more important, or experience may be more important; but I can’t think of a single one where you don’t need both.
You may feel guilty for having seemed like you were stuck-up or overly proud of yourself. If you say you’re good at something, other people can assume you also look down on them for being not so good at it. But that’s a problem with society, not a problem with you. You and I both know that superior skill does not equal superior value; all humans are equally valuable, and anyhow, legal skill is an awfully arbitrary measure to rank people on.
If you don’t want to sell yourself short but want to avoid insulting anyone else, you would be wise to cultivate the attitude that “I’m pretty darn awesome… and so are you!” I think you were verging on it already; to take your statement literally, you believe that when he has the experience and education you do, his work will be as valuable as yours is.
You’re allowed to be proud of your accomplishments and skills. It’s just a tricky dance convincing other people that you are not in fact an absolute prig who thinks they’re dirt under your feet because they’re not good lawyers.
But they’re also good at things of their own–things that you’re not so good at. Maybe that one is a really awesome guitar player; the other is a really great parent; yet another can run the mile in six minutes flat. You, as a lawyer, are a specialist; when you need some other specialist, you depend on them, just like they depend on you.
Keep in mind that other people specialize in other things, admire their skill, and don’t be afraid to be honest about your own. It’s okay to be proud of your accomplishments; but to get along in the world, you have to take steps to communicate that you don’t think yourself superior.
YTA. you need to provide your friend with a financial booster to his cashflow to make up for trying to humiliate him in front of everyone. He deserves the extra money more than you if you really think about it
I don’t see how a judgment is possible here (which won’t stop people from giving one of course lol). The comment as written could be rude or not rude, depending on the tone of voice and context. Which is precisely what you’re being criticized for. Your wife thinks you said it in a rude tone, and you think you didn’t. How am I supposed to know who is right?
As I’m sure your experience and qualifications will tell you, what you say will never be as important as how you say it. I don’t know how you said it so I can’t really judge. However, if you and your wife have a healthy and loving relationship then I would say to take what she says on board and to give it far more weight than what you’ll get from here.
Well he was TA first, telling you you charged too much. He asked and you answered. You were mad at his comment so you lashed out by making a comment that was condescending. To imitate a child “I think you’re even”.
In English, that comes across as at least a vaguely AH-ish way to express a totally non-AH-ish concept.
It is totally fine to say, “I can charge that much because I have unusually high credentials…my clients seek me out because I can handle more specialized situations than a lot of other people in the industry.”
In other words, it is fine to straightforwardly talk about what you bring to the table that gets you to the fees you can charge.
But what you did could have come across as putting other people down, implying that they aren’t as good as you (and the phrasing “When you can do X, then you can do Y,” is often used in a condescending or dismissive way…think the way a parent might ignore a child’s protests by saying, “When you pay the bills, then you can make the rules”)
So I’m going to say NAH:
It is entirely possible you intended the statement in a straightforward way, and entirely possible that your wife (and others) could have heard it differently than what you intended.
My advice in these kinds of situations is to clear the air: go to your friend and say, “My wife said I may have come across as harsh the other day…I wanted to clarify that what I meant was XYZ and hope you didn’t think I was trying to imply anything else”
Arrogant is the term, not passive aggressive. It’s all about your tone, which is kind of braggy. You might have gotten the point across with “my clients seem to think it’s money well spent.” Less “look at me”, more “results talk”, not so judgy of others life choices.
Tone is everything because that’s an entirely reasonable thing to say, but I don’t know how you said it.
You can be right, and wrong at the same time.
NTA in my opinion. He said you charged too much and you told him why. I’m not mad about it.
Seems to me that you mirrored his tone that implied you were overcharging. Had he said, “wow, do you really find people will pay that rate, that’s amazing,” I bet your response would have been equally different. NTA
Hard to say but based on this ESH. Your friend was rude to say you charged too much for your services, and you were rude to say he would be able to charge as much once he is as qualified as you.
He is thinking of going the independent route and wanted to learn from you. Maybe he is envious of your success, maybe not. What he learnt is that you regard yourself as better than him.
ESH- he for questioning your charge (especially if he did it in a dismissive way) You for implying he’s worth less than you and would have to work up to it. (And introducing him as an underachiever in your story- who has reason to be jealous of your success. None of that was necessary to frame your question. You sound conceited. )
And yes you are entitled to charge for your expertise-
A more right way to frame it would be, it is high but clients are happy about it, or I see my work as worth the fees and move on.
Eh, it sounds like you the content of what you said isn’t a problem, but the tone may have been. You could make it up by sharing what kinds of admin you use, what helped you through law school, etc. DON’T give him money like some buffoon suggested!!
You can charge whatever people are willing to pay. If you charge that much and have clients willing to pay you aren’t charging too much. Your friend accused you of doing something wrong and you defended yourself.
YTA. That sounded like you were bragging.
NTA. He told you you charged too much. You told him why.
However, invite him to something one-on-one to make sure he doesn’t think you believe you are above him.
YTA. Not a huge one but still should probably clear the air. I think what you said could very easily be taken as a slight against his qualifications because he is also an attorney. Even if that isn’t how you meant it, I think it’s reasonable for someone to hear it that way.
If he weren’t an attorney, I’d say n t a because in that situation, you’re just bragging instead of also putting another attorney down (from other people’s perspective).
NTA.
Never undersell your true worth. If your friend thinks you’re too expensive, that’s his problem, not yours.
How could you apologize? What would you say to apologize exactly?
He said a kind of rude comment, you defended yourself with a bit of bragging. The subject is dead.
Be ready for him to joke about your ego in the future and you can decide at that time to laugh at yourself or to go further.
So next time it comes up you can be ready to say “i guess I’m fortunate” or if he’s leaning on you too hard say “give me your card, I’ll refer you the business that can’t afford me.”
Your call.
YTA – If you know your worth there’s no need to boast. There’s something unfulfilled within you for putting others down (make them feel less than). A 28-yr friendship doesn’t mean that much to you, does it?
NTA. He has no right to tell you how to run your business. He should mind his own.
Don’t necessarily have to apologize, but you could always reach out and say you don’t think that the conversation landed in a good spot. Seems like you noticed on your own that your friend’s demeanor changed. My husband and I can both be blunt and quick to speak in a way that can come across as arrogant. We help one another out (where it makes sense) by pointing out interactions that could’ve gone better. Relationships and communication are items we can constantly learn and improve.
Rather than take it as a shaming moment consider it a spot for contemplation.
NTA – Lawyers are pricey, that’s no news