Before I get attacked for making generalizations of men, I’ll just put this disclaimer: I know, not ALL men. I am aware that men are individuals and there are still good men out there.
I’ve always known that some(depending where you look) men are generally shallow (focusing on the external appearance of women is hardwired into their biology moreso than women) and misogynistic, but on Reddit/online it seems as though the grand majority of them are.
Groups specifically for men are often the worst (I can’t name which ones because I don’t want my account to be banned). Someone will make a post asking about women and hoards of men will say the most degrading, insulting, hateful, and misogynistic things straight out of Andrew Tate/Redpill communities. Like how women start to lose their worth and value after age 25 (a lot of comments about “hitting the wall”), degrading women who have a body count (ew I hate that term) over 1 (even tho they themselves often have a body count in the double-digits and don’t see a problem with it), promoting trad-wife culture, making fun of women who chose not to have kids, immediately blaming women for any divorce/breakup, etc. If you scroll through the comments section of any of these posts, you will see hundreds or thousands of upvotes on the most unhinged hateful things, which makes me fear that the majority of men truly believe that cr*p.
The men in my family are not like this (at least not outwardly and they’ve never said anything like this) so it’s kind of shocking to see how many men are. My ex was a redpill misogynist who cheated on me throughout the relationship and used a lot of redpill terms/tactics (negging me to make me feel insecure, rated me as a 6/10 on a scale despite me asking him not to, generally saw women as lesser than, got a kick out of emotionally manipulating me, admitted to liking Trump/redpill content towards the end of our relationship). He was also on Reddit a lot and learned a lot of the game/pick-up artistry stuff (to which I was completely oblivious about until I dated him) on Reddit forums. (Side note: unsurprisingly, he was also the least attractive man I’ve ever dated, which is something I was initially blind to/willing to look past because he love-bombed me and I fell for him. He was 5’7” with a less than average equipment, I but anyways…I digress!). I thought he was just an oddball, not representative of the majority of men, but not I’m not so sure anymore.
Seeing all the terrible hateful comments men have to say about women behind the secrecy of an anonymous account online, I am starting to become paranoid that most men truly do think this way but are afraid to admit it because they know it makes them look bad. I’m feeling super disillusioned with dating and men in general and fear that my previous optimism about men in my teens and 20s (most men are generally good people and don’t think this way) was just youthful naivety. Also, maybe I had a better perception of men back then because (let’s face it) men are generally much nicer to women in their teens and 20s than 30s+. I am feeling pretty pessimistic about men today and I’m not sure if I’m finally waking up to reality after decades of ignorance or if I’m just seeing the worst of the worst and need to get off the cesspool of the Reddit manosphere. Or maybe a bit of both.
Comments
You need to get off the internet.
Society is misogynistic but there are levels to it. If you’re seeing a lot of redpill shit on here that is a higher level than you may see offline. I would just try to find people you’re aligned with period.
I see all the stuff you listed more on Facebook which is why I don’t use it much anymore.
It’s not all men, but in some places it’s actually a lot of men unfortunately 😑 I live in a semi rural, low socioeconomic area and many of the men here are the prime target for conservative redpill content…working class, intergenerational dysfunction, addictions, low levels of education all culminating in a good reason to want someone to say ‘all your problems aren’t your fault, it’s women/people of colour/migrants that are to blame’.
Some of my city and middle class friends have no idea what I’m talking about, they overall have a completely different experience of men than I do here. So yeah…’not all men’ depending on your social, economic and geographical context!
A bit of both but you need to get off the internet mainly
A little of column A and a little of column B. Not as many as you see in their online presence, but unfortunately more than you would suspect IRL.
IDK girl. I feel like here they are just not afraid to say what they are thinking bc they can hide behind a keyboard
I think all men have dealt with their misogyny to varying degrees. I think the culture wants them to be misogynistic, many institutions are set up that way, and they can see it reflected in many subcultures and the media. So it is a bit like swimming against the current.
The misogyny baked into our culture has only recently been challenged. Where I grew up in the early 00s, feminism was weird and subversive. Those men my age are just now raising teenagers.
You’re looking at bored people on the internet.
No, it’s definitely all men. And you can say all men because they were raised in a patriarchal society, and being raised in a society that views men as superior brainwashes all men into thinking that they are superior. It just translates into different forms and severity across different groups of men.
The women on here who are like it’s not all men, you just need to get off the internet are the ones who think the men around them are the perfect, most thoughtful, least sexist men in the universe. But in reality, it’s just their bias, and the men they are around are just as sexist as any other men. They just put up with and ignore the sexism/misogyny because they love them.
Ive heard so much sexist crap lately from the guys i work with that ive started thinking maybe it really is all men. (I’m one of three women in a facility of about 70 people). It’s like they’ve stopped trying to hide their misogyny, and It’s really dissapointing hearing it from someone i thought was a decent person, let alone a dozen all at once.
Women: Always having the need to say “not all men”.
Men: “Anyway women are—”
Nah I don’t feel sorry for those losers. The good men know they’re good so they wouldn’t relate to some instances mentioned by women.
I was intrigued by your question, so I looked up a study. It’s hard to pinpoint how to define what you’re getting at, but I think Andrew Tate is a clear exponent of what you mean. Apparently, in 2023 21% of 16-29 year old men in the UK who’ve heard of Andrew Tate have a favourable opinion on him, with a further 18% being neutral. Way less for women and older men.
Note that young men are the main demographic on reddit
So yeah, not most men, but a significant part of young men are how you describe I’d say.
source
It’s a secret third thing: most men genuinely don’t know they are misogynistic. Even many of the ones who will say, to your face, “as a man I have internalized bias against women” will surprise you at how little they know of their own misogyny.
There is little incentive to constantly engage a forever process of unlearning bias, and a lot of implicit incentive (by way of privilege) to not engaging with it and accepting the status quo. So they simply…don’t.
So it’s not that they know they have these things and are just hiding it. It’s that they genuinely don’t see them, because things are much easier when you let that still atrophy to the point where you can’t.
IMO, it’s almost all.
And it seems to be becoming more socially acceptable to be openly sexist again. When it seems like women’s rights and feminism were making some progress but now in the US it feels like a massive backlash from men across classes and socioeconomic backgrounds. They overwhelmingly supported a rapist for president. They rejected and mocked a black woman for daring to run and dream of a position of power that so many men still think women are “too hormonal/too emotional” for.
There’s definitely been other women coming to these realizations. Realizing how many male partners straight lied to them about their political beliefs and ideologies. Reddit is full of women really surprised that men hide that shit for years. The US also saw interest in the Korean feminist 4B movement rise after the election (no dating men, no marriage to men, no sex with men, no having children). Women are recognizing inequality in heterosexual relationships and choosing to opt out. To leave men behind while men try to drag us back to olden times when woman had no choice but to stay in unhappy or abusive marriages with little to no job prospects or way to save money.
1/3 of women will be abused by a man in their life. More than 70% of violent crimes against women are committed by men. Male romantic partners are by far the most likely perpetrators of the murder of women.
Most men are misogynistic because our entire society is. Lots of them don’t even know many of their views are inherently sexist and reinforcing themselves as superior or more deserving than women. Some are in denial themselves about it.
43 year old woman here. Look at domestic violence statistics. Intimate partner rape and murder statistics. In real life, I don’t share with people that I have been raped, but I have been, more than once. Drugged in a club by a stranger. I’ve been groped, harassed, etc. It’s been endless. I used to think it was just me. But reading the experiences of other women has shown that’s it’s not just me, it’s all women.
Even the best of men expect women in a romantic relationship to be sexually available to them at the man’s whim. That’s literally what a romantic relationship is to them. For most men, their only love language is sex.
I have finally had to accept after 25 years of being an adult and 25 years of personal data, that yes, men are that bad. Look at society. Where is our woman president? Where are our women CEOs? It’s still a boys club as much as it ever was. And I have realized through personal experience that men gatekeeping prestigious careers means that most women don’t have enough money to live comfortably without a man. Which means we are in sexual slavery to men. Which is exactly where men want us.
I think there are also a fair amount of men who are misogynistic and don’t realize it until they’re confronted with a situation that requires them to think about the roles of women in their lives and the world.
“Not all…”
But so goddamn many.
So many that the “not all” really doesn’t matter anymore. It’s ruined. It’s all of them.
I’ll chime in with a little male perspective here. Various recent studies have shown about 30% of American men haven’t had sex in the last year. So essentially they’re incels. Fair to assume that the vast majority of these men have some hatred towards women.
The other portion that has some misogynistic tendencies are the guys who are sleeping with a lot of women. They likely view women as primarily sexual objects as you stated. These men are far less than 30% but are perceived as more because these are the men that so many women have had experiences dating. And yes, I know that’s a red pill theory.
All this being said, the most extreme men and women are the most vocal folks, hence their presence on reddit, so both misogynists and misandrists seem to be overrepresented on men’s and women’s subs, respectively. If you ask these same men you call misogynists, they’d probably think most women are misandrists on subs like this and TwoX.
All I’m saying is there are 2 sides to every coin.
I work in IT, so in a male dominated environment. And I have never heard anything unpleasant from my colleagues, or been treated in a way which made me feel uncomfortable. I HAVE heard them use supportive, inclusive language, and they always talk to me in a friendly, open and respectful way.
I am also part of a social group that’s mainly guys, and again never hear anything toxic or upsetting from them. We have quite a diverse group, which includes LGBT and neurodiverse folks, and everyone is treated with respect and made welcome in the group. We do various activities together and I’ve never felt that the men in any way resent my presence or see me as anything other than a equal member of the group.
So, the vast vast vast majority of my real life interactions with men are all telling me that no, they’re not misogynistic.
Yes. And I am adding that most women are too because we live in this society and no other, and we are bombarded with such messages every day, often in a very subtle way, starting from childhood. Look at fairy tales, children’s movies, pop songs, advertising, hollywood movies, everything is filled with stereotypes, role expectations, toxic behaviors.
Most cultures are historically misogynistic and we are all influenced by our culture.
Every single one of us, men and women, are raised in a deeply misogynistic society, and therefore we ALL have internalised and unconscious misogyny in our brains.
The biggest variable is how much work each of us has done to dismantle this internal misogyny and change our thoughts/behaviour. Lots of women can see it more clearly because we are directly impacted by it in a negative way, while it takes more for most men to figure it out.
So the question shouldn’t be if all men are secretly misogynistic, but how much work they have done to recognise and confront their internal misogyny. How cognizant are they of the struggle of others and the damage of the patriarchy? How do their actions align with feminism? That’s what you should think about when getting to know a man.
I think it’s more subtle and discreet in real life, and therefore more dangerous. It plays out at home and in the workplace in really insidious and less obvious ways. In ways that don’t go viral or get legal attention, but are just as dangerous. And this is not even touching on domestic violence.
Notices a man commenting on this post
Ah damn it.
Unless they actively examine and fight against misogyny, yes, they are misogynistic. But the degrees of misogyny and how it manifests will very.
Most of us are misogynistic to some degree during our lives because society is misogynistic. A lot of women have internalized misogyny and perpetuate it. But a lot of us are forced to examine it since we are women and we are directly hurt by misogyny.
Men do not have to examine misogyny and they avoid it because it makes them feel weird, PLUS it benefits them. Why would they ruin feeling superior to someone ot being able to use them when they don’t really have the motivation to do so?
Misogyny is not always overt and obvious like it can be online. But people do have internalized biases they pick up from society, and not many people really think deeply about it.
Just as women, some men do examine it and try to correct for it. The men in my life are like that.
I don’t know about most men, but something that I found quite telling is that I work in quite male dominated, yet progressive/broadly liberal or left wing industry where a lot of the men would not consider themselves to be misogynistic. However the more time spent with them and overhearing their conversations, the more I realise a lot of it is ingrained.
For example, a few years ago some of my male colleagues were talking about some woman they knew and one of them called her a slut for ‘sleeping around’. I immediately asked the guy who said that how he’d describe a man who did the same, and if he’d congratulate him for it. All 3 guys stopped and looked at me kinda shocked and a bit slack jawed. It was like the double standard hadn’t even occurred to them until I pointed it out.
Most men are misogynistic, but not in the reddit way. They share a lot of beliefs and tastes with the dudes you read around here, but they aren’t 100% conscious of it and are convinced they are not the problem.
All men have some level of misogyny just like all white people have some level of racism. We live in a culture that actively teaches us this stuff from infancy. It helps a lot if you are aware of it and actively working on it. Many people aren’t and react like you’re saying that they are a bad person when you point out something problematic that they’ve done or said. (Making a mistake doesn’t make you a bad person. We all mess up sometimes. That is what it is to be human. Sometimes those mistakes cause a lot of harm, and not meaning to cause the harm doesn’t dismiss one’s responsibility for the harm. All those things can be true at the same time.)
Red-piller types are very active posters and tend to pull each other in to dogpile comment sections they find, so I don’t think they are as common irl as it seems on the internet. And also there are plenty of men that aren’t addressing their misogyny in any way and are hostile when it is pointed out or double down. They cause a lot of harm.
And there are men in every variation of level of awareness of misogyny and response to that awareness, from red-pillers up to men who are aware and have done enough work that they only slip in small ways occasionally and self-correct.
This can be applied to white people too.
this is just a general rant on my part, but my problem with men and society as a whole is that they believe that women shouldn’t be allowed to do the same things as them or given the same “grace” as them
why is it that a man can hook up, but a woman can’t or is viewed as a “slut?”
why is it acceptable for a man to be a bachelor, but a woman is viewed as less valuable?
why is it viewed as a woman’s job to put dinner on the table, but a man can’t be submissive or cater to his wife or partner // significant other?
why is it seen as a woman’s job to either 1) raise her family and work while the husband is catered to after work or 2) give up all of her wants, needs, and interests for the sake of her partner and/or children?
why is a man viewed as a hero for being a single parent, but a woman is pitied upon?
why is a bigger man brushed off for having a “dad bod,” but women have to convince others that their worth is more than a number on a scale?
why is it acceptable for a man to be a “provider” and a woman to be viewed as incapable by some individuals as if she needs to be babied or coddled?
why are women made fun of for their driving skills when men are the ones more inclined to get into car accidents?
why is a man respected for being assertive or dominant, but a woman is called “crazy” for reacting to the disrespect or a “bitch?”
why is it that in some cultures – they said women don’t need an education because men will provide for them so they can be stuck in low wage menial jobs while the husband has the better access to opportunities rather than encouraging & empowering both equally?
why is a woman’s worth based on the relationships she chooses or creates e.g. marriage and raising a family whereas a man is celebrated more for his individualism in the form of academics, career, wealth, and professional accomplishments?
why is it that having a daughter is viewed as a terrible thing in some cultures and a boy is viewed as worthwhile and honorable?
why is it that in some cultures the girls // women experience family violence and abuse, but the boys don’t experience anything remotely close? e.g. femicide
I think that all men exist on a continuum of misogyny. They can make efforts not to be, of course but some of it will be subconscious from growing up in a misogynistic society. I actually think that the same goes for women and internalised misogyny. We’re swimming in it from birth.
I work in law at a job that is mission-driven so most, if not all, of my coworkers are liberal and compassionate. Obviously, we all grew up in a patriarchal society so we all have degrees of misogyny internalized. But by and large, in the liberal city I live in, I am in a cocoon of safety and good men.
My husband is even more feminist than I am. I grew up in a culturally backwards family, so I have had to deal with many toxic beliefs I’ve carried, whereas he fundamentally believes in the equality of people like it’s air.
OP, your experience is a function of the microcosm of society in which you exist. If you live in a conservative, rural area where the culture is super sexist, then that’s what you’ll see. Algorithms online are powered by engagement. The most incendiary beliefs and rants will always get more eyeballs, so those are the ones popularized. The key is to moderate your social media intake and to find a liberal bastion.
I saw in another comment that your partner pressures you into having sex, and you have some very deep-seated beliefs about sex and men’s behaviors. I’m sorry for what you’ve gone through, but I think rather than resigning yourself to the “fact” that all men suck, you might consider therapy. So that you can realize that you do not suck, that you deserve better, and that there truly, genuinely, absolutely is better out there.
While I think there are a good amount of misogynistic men, I think you need to get off Reddit and not let it infest your brain. Men are people, and plenty of them are decent, normal people who just want partnerships with decent, normal women.
Need to get off Reddit! It’s vary greatly for your social circles. The men in my family, though unintentional, are quite sexist. However the men I choose to be friends or tend to work with are great and have very feminist views.
It’s also really not as acceptable to share sexist views out loud in public in most settings, so a lot of men will come to Reddit to spew all their wacky views on us crazy ladies and our sensitive hormones. You negativity more online because because in their lives won’t tolerate it nearly as much.
I never felt this way until I joined Reddit. I i’m overwhelmed by the amount of hateful misogynistic men on this platform.
I think most men have a lot more misogyny than most women want to admit, and I also think a lot of women have a lot of internalised misogyny that they don’t want to face up to.
I think in many ways we live in a patriarchal society. The comic You Should Have Asked explains it very well. I think both semesters make a lot of quick judgements about others. A lot of men expect women to do the emotional labor and get butter when they don’t. A lot of men expect women to fit in certain boxes of servitude and get mad when they don’t. There are definitely men who see us as only worthy of being slept with and doing “women’s work”.
I tend to steel myself against any AMAB person waiting to see if I’ll be treated with respect as a human being or handled with kids gloves or flirted with on an uncomfortable level or written off.
Now that I write that out the comic may not relevant.
Most men voted for trump so… make of that what you will.
From a guy’s perspective: Reddit is a cesspool that brings out the worst in people and is not the real world.
This is something I think about a lot these days, primarily in the context of being mom to a college boy. I’m not really worried about my son because he has such a strong sense of who he is but I see so many other moms to boys in middle school up through their early 20s being shocked to discover that their son has been corrupted by red pill garbage into someone they no longer recognize. I keep wishing I could give some useful advice to them on how to prevent or undo that heartbreaking descent into misogyny and hatefulness but I have no clue how to make it stop. It is insidious and poisons men in ways that are rarely obvious until it’s far too late.
There’s more open misogyny in our world today than in several decades. IMO that leads to more misogyny overall – young people follow impressive leaders, and the Andrew Tates appear as both to impressionable folks growing into a rather hostile and rapidly changing social landscape.
That said, you have spoken misogyny in your own post, and a dash of misandry as well. I wish we as women were better at detecting our own internalized misogyny. I recognize what a struggle it is, having done much work on myself in this area.
I would say most men are not straight-up misogynistic, but just blissfully unaware of the privileges/benefits they enjoy that most women don’t.
I think most men want to believe they aren’t like this and that most men aren’t most of the time.
However. pretty much every woman I know has been sexually assaulted in one way or another, from mild to major, verbal to physical, childhood to adulthood. And pretty much every guy I know swears they wouldn’t ever never never do such a thing. The math doesn’t math.
I think there are a lot of guys out there who have exceptions in their minds on when it is okay or consider something harmless that isn’t actually so. I think also that many to most don’t have the self reflective nature to realize that yes, they actually are contributing to the issues surrounding subjugation of women, even though in general they are “nice guys”.
Sadly, most people in general, not just men, are misogynistic.
I think this is a really interesting question. I would say my partner had fears that I wouldn’t like him if we didn’t share a high level AWARENESS of every single social issue, and so initially, listened more than he spoke. But I don’t think his intentions were bad. I can see how some people would feel it was duplicitous.
We BOTH have concerns about outrage culture that is fuelled by bots and algorithms. We both have a desire to be driven by facts and logic. If there is outrage about anything we don’t fully understand we tend to have questions, but always intellectually interrogate things respectfully. It’s in good faith. We disagree in good faith.
Early in our dating I might have said something like “fuck barstool sports, those guys are all fucking shitheads.” And he probably would have said very little, not because he wanted to hide secret misogynistic views, but because he had absolutely no idea what I was talking about – and really wanted to listen to what I had to say. He was probably very embarrassed for not knowing all the crappy things the leadership there has done. He probably didn’t volunteer “I’ve been reading it for years, I had no idea.” The awful shit was just not on his radar. But I didn’t throw out the whole man because he didn’t know Dave Portnoy was a piece of garbage. Especially since he politely asked, listened and readily and quickly agreed Dave Portnoy is a piece of shit. I’m sure some would say this was him “hiding his true nature,” but I understand why he probably behaved this way.
A year in, if I bring up anger over something he doesn’t know about he’ll say “what happened there?” He doesn’t feel embarrassed over not knowing the details of every single shit behaviour or worry that makes him seem like a shit person, he’s inquisitive and listens and has a logical, non defensive response. When things unfold in the world, he has what I consider to be the ideal response: he always spots the sexism, the racism, the cruelty and knows it is unacceptable and horrific. If I say something is misogynistic and he doesn’t immediately see that, he knows my lived experiences are the most important thing to hear and listens to me if I have the inclination to explain (and I do.) There is the total awareness that he cannot have my perspective and there is nothing more valuable than listening to me explain why something to unfair to women. Conversely, I truly do listen to his point of view and have learned a lot about why some men show up the way they do.
Our core values are completely aligned and I see that more clearly now than ever – a Trump policy will come out (cancelling aids treatment funding) and he always sees the point immediately. More often than not it’s to kill and impoverish women and minorities. He gets it on the whole. I don’t bin him because I had to point out ways Dax Sheppard can be kind of fucking problematic and he had genuinely never heard of the Intellectual Dark Web.
Bruh I don’t even know. I love my husband and he has always hated Trump but like I haven’t seen him get as enraged as me about everything that’s been going on since 2016 until this week when things directly effected HIM: no Nintendo preorder and his 401k went down. I was like oh NOW you are really upset?!?!??
Yes, they are.
I don’t think Reddit is an accurate reflection for a lot of reasons, there are a lot of factors driving A Certain Kind of Dialogue here. I would suggest disengaging with the dude-centric subs ASAP.
That said I do think men are more misogynistic than they let on are really realize, and current events in the USA have proven plenty have a lot of anger about women…existing and not particularly needing them that exhibit in toxic ways.
I think society itself is really sexist and it’s work to pull yourself out of that and treat other people decently regardless of sex or gender.
most men are not secretly anything
most men have not even thought for a millisecond about trying to conceal their worldviews because most men live in a world devoid of consequence
I find a lot of men hold at least one or two redpilled ideas.
Sexism is more ubiquitous, but misogyny is not far behind. Women’s decisions and affects are always taken to task whenever someone treats them poorly but when someone treats a man poorly, the other person is just an asshole.
Like anything shy of physical assault is fair game. Not to mention the bro-blindness men have for how their friends treat women.
Men are inherently sexist just like white people are inherently racist. Both of them would have to acknowledge their problematic views that was passed onto them and make the conscious decision to educate themselves. That said, men have to continuously do a lot of unlearning about the concept of patriarchy and its impact on women while becoming more empathetic towards the plight of women in order to be considered an advocate or an ally to women. Or for them to even say they respect women. That’s not possible unless some men do a whole lot of unlearning and educating themselves about the ramifications of sexism towards women. So to answer your question, yes. The men that choose not to understand the plight of women and the men that choose not to educate themselves on the horrific history of what women went through are misogynists,full stop.
There are more good (or at least well-intentioned) men than bad ones. It’s just that the bad ones are very loud.
I can honestly tell you that I know two men who aren’t secretly (or otherwise) misogynistic; my husband and his father. Every other man I’ve known and met is misogynistic to a capacity. My own father is the pinnacle of this (the malignant narcissist he is, he hates women and women are always the problem; every single problem at work has always been a woman’s fault, and there have been countless women over the years), my brother is absolutely misogynistic at times (albeit less than our dad), every male coworker has done or said something misogynistic.
I have stories on stories at work in particular. I used to work in a very male dominated field, and the comments I’d get were appalling. Even now, I work a standard corporate job, and I’ve been called a secretary (I’m not, nor is it offensive to be one, but it was his way of trying to demean my work because “women don’t offer more than that anyways”–yes, HR knows but I asked them not move further because he put in his notice so what’s the point?)
Not all men, but more than not, IMO. Even my husband and his dad had to work some of their stuff, too.
I feel like it’s not as common in real life cuz they know it’s not a good thing. But online,when they can hide their identity behind the account,they could say whatever their flat head desires. Also with the economy now,a lot of guys couldn’t find a romantic partner/girlfriend so after feeling like a looser in the relationship/dating,they start to put their hate towards women cuz they think women owe them that.
Pretty much every man out there has some misogynistic beliefs, what they are exactly will vary greatly. And far more than our culture likes to admit are either predators or in league with predators. At least 75% of men are indifferent to the abuse women recieve.
Most men probably hold some misogynist views but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re misogynists imo. Just about everyone has some sort of racist thoughts embedded within them as well, but the actions are what matters.