If a fetus dies in a crash caused by another driver, but the 6-month pregnant woman survives with minor injuries, should the driver face murder charges?
If a 6-month pregnant woman is injured in a car accident and suffers minor injuries but the fetus dies due to the crash, should the person responsible be charged with murder for the death of the fetus, or only for the injuries to the woman?
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This should be a fun discussion.
Yes. If the woman CHOOSES to keep the fetus, others shouldn’t be allowed to kill it.
Someone’s attempting a “gotcha” moment.
It’s just a bunch of cells – who cares?
Edit: Guess I should have actually added s/; for absurd arguments made elsewhere.
Seemed obvious, but perhaps not.
If abortion isn’t murder then this isn’t murder. Before anyone disagrees please look up the definition of murder. at the very least abortion would still be manslaughter compared to this.
This exact thing happened to my mom when she was pregnant with me. Except I’m obviously not dead. It was minor in the sense that I was fine and so was she but her car was totaled and she had seatbelt burns on the coat she was wearing so it wasn’t just a fender bender. This was 30 yrs ago and I don’t think at the time it would be considered murder, but with new legislation being passed now I think you could argue it in court. The difficult part would be having a medical professional definitively prove the fetal demise was a direct consequence of a reckless crash though.
In this case, they could be charged with manslaughter
https://patch.com/florida/bradenton/unborn-child-killed-wrong-way-desoto-bridge-crash-palmetto-police
It is just a very sad outcome as the fetus is not born yet. It is not classed as a person just yet.
Do I look like fish to you?
The fetus didn’t wear a seatbelt. Their fault.
If a 6-month pregnant woman is injured at a super market, slipping on a cherry that was left on the floor and suffers minor injuries but the fetus dies due to the cherry, should the super market responsible be charged with murder for the death of the fetus, or only for the injuries to the woman?
At some point, it is fate or an accident. Blame is not the answer.
Car accidents that result in death aren’t usually murder.
Honestly manslaughter would likely be used in best case scenarios. Obviously, in most crashes the responsible party doesn’t even intend to crash, let alone kill. However, if there was intent behind the crash, the obviously a higher charge is needed.
In this case, while the child hasn’t been born yet, the fact that the fetus is at the second-third trimester mark indicates intent to carry the child to term, which I feel classifies the fetus as a living person. While I am not a lawyer and this is likely tricky grounds, best case is to look at the entire scenario and go by whichever charge would stick the best.
Probably depends upon which state it happened in. Some states will consider it at least manslaughter, others will hold a parade ..
It was injuries to the woman, caused by the car crash, that THEREAFTER caused the death of the fetus. So no, no murder charges, since the fetus is not even considered a person yet, in the eyes of the state.
The only direct damage caused by the reckless driver, would be minor injuries and damage to the car
The woman could sue, but it would be argued in court that the death of the fetus was not DIRECTLY caused by the accused, and it would be hard to prove that it was.
It wouldn’t be classed as a murder even if the mother died, it would be vehicular manslaughter. So, no.
No
I feel like this is already a law…maybe I’m just that out of touch with reality…🙃
I think it depends on what state you’re in.
No, but even a born person typically isn’t considered murder. I also wouldn’t consider losing a pregnancy minor injury.
If intoxication is involved, then charges are likely, and rightfully so.
why would a driver in an ACCIDENT be charged with murder? What a feeble attempt lol
Depends on the country’s law. In some life starts at conception, a couple months after, or at birth.
In France for example, if the kid dies within the womb: nothing. A couple seconds out of the womb: homicide.
The fetus isn’t a person yet and it wouldn’t be murder if a person died as a result of a car accident, though depending on the circumstances there could be criminal charges of one sort or another. Not murder though, for traffic accidents.
I can’t find it, but there was a case of road rage that resulted in the death of an unborn child about 10-15 years ago. The rager got cut off, so she aggressively followed the woman for several miles, got in front of her, brake checked her, which caused the pregnant driver to swerve right to try avoid her. Unfortunately, she swerved right into an 18 wheeler and ended up pretty badly hurt. The road rager never felt an ounce of shame, but did end up serving some time I think. I wish I could find it. I keep finding cases from a few years ago, but this one was much longer than that.
First off, how can they determine the fetus died due to the crash if it is minor to the mother? Does the fetus have to die at the time of the crash or are we going to have people coming back weeks later with a miscarriage blaming the crash?
How serious is the crash? Is it considered a minor accident as the only injuries are minor? We talking about fender bender or a mom is lucky to be alive sort of deal.
What caused the accident? Was it reckless and negligent behavior? Was it a normal small mistake accident that happens all over the country at any given time?
You give way too little information to truly have an opinion, so I will take it as the most open definition of what you could mean. That would be a minor accident, the fetus did not die at the scene of the accident, and it was not caused by reckless behavior. I would have to say no, they should not be.
I am not sure what would change my opinion in these circumstances beyond grossly negligent or reckless behavior. I would also need the death of the fetus tied definitively to the accident if the mother is barely injured
Even if the mother also died, there wouldn’t be a murder charge. Well, unless your example involves someone purposefully ramming into a pedestrian or something similar. Accidents on the road typically aren’t murder
Murder, probably not. In the event of her death, it would probably be manslaughter, and even then there would have to be extenuating circumstances like reckless driving or driving under the influence.
If it’s an accident and there are no extenuating circumstances, then no.
If it wasn’t merely an accident, they should be charged with whatever they would be charged with if the woman had died
And even then people generally aren’t charged for manslaughter in an accident unless it’s gross negligence. (DUI, excessive speed, etc)
If it happens in the Bible Belt, they’ll nail the responsible person to the cross before a judge actually is assigned to hear arguments.
That poor fully-growed baby infant was killed by the devil but will be born again and made whole-like.
Murder? Was it intentional or an actual accident ?
I think that while the parents deserve some court appointed therapy to help move on from the ordeal, unless the person knew they were pregnant it shouldn’t be considered in court. And that’s only if the parents very clearly wanted to keep the little mass of cells 💗
In MN it depends
Was it intentional accident?
DWI?
reckless driving?
Yes the person would be charged with manslaughter because the mother wanted the baby.
But if the women wanted to at any time up until the day the baby is born they can have a legal abortion.
The person could still be charged with manslaughter but I assume the women would not press charges for that and the police would most likely not push the issue.
As a general rule a person isn’t charged with murder if a car crash results in the fatality of an actual person, so no.
There are exceptions, if the person can be shown to have deliberately crashed into the other person, for example. But usually some variant of negligent homicide is the maximum charge, and mostly car crashes with fatalities don’t even wind up being any crime.
Basically unless the driver can be shown to have been intoxicated, driving recklessly, fled the scene, or had a known mechanical failure that they drove with despite knowing about, you’re not going to see any charges pressed against anyone. And sometimes, like fleeing the scene, it’s a much lesser offense.
Heck, sometimes an actual murder charge for someone who deliberately and intentionally uses their car as a weapon to kill someone doesn’t happen. To cite a case I’m (very, very, very) tangentially involved in [1], look at the killing of Brian Deneke.
In 1997 a guy named Dustin Camp and his group got into a fight with Deneke and his group. Deneke et al were punks and into the local alt scene, Camp was an upper middle class football player. Both were white. Deneke was 19, Camp was 17. There was a prior history of incidents between the groups, I’d classify it as the normies hassling and occasionally beating on the punks, but I’m not 100% unbiased so…
The killing happened when Camp slammed his car into Deneke in an I-HOP parking lot. Camp was drunk, and witnesses say he shouted “I’m a Ninja in my Caddy!” before he hit and killed Deneke.
The jury acquitted Camp of murder and instead convicted him of vehicular manslaughter, a much lesser charge.
So… Yeah. Deliberate killing of a person with a car, no murder conviction, though I will grudgingly say that the prosecution did at least bring murder charges against Camp, there was a lot of doubt they would.
TL;DR: even when someone kills someone else on purpose with a car it’s really, REALLY, hard to get a murder conviction.
[1] My involvement is that I vaguely knew Deneke and had seen him around some places I used to frequent. I didn’t even actually know him by name until he was killed, so while I’m not exactly completely unbiased I’m not really involved much, but I figure I peripheral to his friend group, so at most I’m friend of a friend maybe.
Vehicular manslaughter.
So many years ago (40ish) I was living in Los Angeles and a friends dad was in a car accident. He killed 5 people, one being a pregnant lady. She was 6 months along and both she and the baby died. He was convicted of 6 counts of vehicular manslaughter
According to the Catholic Church in this case it’s your murder unless it’s their murder in which case it’s no muder at all’ just a simple mistake:
https://www.reddit.com/r/NewsOfTheStupid/comments/1jxr919/aiming_to_limit_financial_damages_catholic/
So don’t expect clarity from them.
This is already a thing. In many states 8 months pregnant counts as two people
Personally I think they should be charged with murder because that’s what it is.
Unless the other person was drunk or racing illegally or something else where there was a huge amount of negligence I would say they shouldn’t be charged with anything.
Should probably face manslaughter charges. Upgrade to murder if it’s the baby daddy trying to kill the child.
I can see how this discussion can be turned into debate regarding fetal personhood. it’s my understanding that in North America most courts will assume the baby was wanted if the mother died.
if the mother survived, it depends on how it happened. if it was an accident, like a vehicle malfunction, or something that could not have been prevented or foreseen by the offending driver, a manslaughter charge could be brought against them.
if they were on substances, driving in a neglectful or dangerous way, a murder charge could very easily be presented by the prosecution.
Here’s my question for any legal experts reading this thread:
if a pregnant person is driving to a clinic to get an abortion and they are hit by another vehicle, survive, but lose their baby, can they decide to not press charges? I’m guessing it will vary based on jurisdiction, but please humor me.
In TX yes the driver responsible for the crash can be charged.