If someone disagrees with Trump, agrees he is flouting the system and trying to be too authoritarian, has concerns about Congress and the courts retaining their power to check him, and identifies as on the right — fiscally, politically, socially — would you rather they call themselves liberal just because of their opposition to him? Do you agree that because Trump is considered the candidate on the right, people must support him to maintain a conservative position?
What would be some of your red lines for saying, “Although I agree with that person on some things, I wouldn’t call that person a liberal”?
I don’t mind saying what prompted this. I’ve had a lot of people questioning my flair. I don’t mind asking honest questions if I’ve shifted, but it seems like for most of the questions, what they have a problem with is opposing Trump. One doubt was raised after (though I didn’t ask if it was direct response) I stated that Trump was trying to make the executive branch the one that makes, enforces and interprets the law. I also said that equality is a conservative US value from the Declaration of Independence. I will freely admit that I do tend to post more about the beliefs that I have that would be considered those that pull me left than the ones that mark me as right.
Personally I don’t think Trump defines what is and is not conservative. Conservatism existed before he was in politics and (I hope) will exist afterward, and I don’t think support for him should be a litmus test for conservatism. I also notice that Classical Liberals post both here and in AskConservatives, and seem to be accepted as both liberals and conservatives.
A lot of people do challenge my right-leaning or center-right flair, though. I suspect that it inspires some on the left to see that not all people on the right are enamored of Trump. I don’t feel that I can accurately describe myself as on the left in the US, though I’m willing to question myself about it.
So this seems like a space for the question. Would you like all non-Trump supporters to identify as liberals? What are some beliefs and political positions someone could have that would make you say, “I wouldn’t accept that person being called a liberal”?
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If someone disagrees with Trump, agrees he is flouting the system and trying to be too authoritarian, has concerns about Congress and the courts retaining their power to check him, and identifies as on the right — fiscally, politically, socially — would you rather they call themselves liberal just because of their opposition to him? Do you agree that because Trump is considered the candidate on the right, people must support him to maintain a conservative position?
What would be some of your red lines for saying, “Although I agree with that person on some things, I wouldn’t call that person a liberal”?
I don’t mind saying what prompted this. I’ve had a lot of people questioning my flair. I don’t mind asking honest questions if I’ve shifted, but it seems like for most of the questions, what they have a problem with is opposing Trump. One doubt was raised after (though I didn’t ask if it was direct response) I stated that Trump was trying to make the executive branch the one that makes, enforces and interprets the law. I also said that equality is a conservative US value from the Declaration of Independence. I will freely admit that I do tend to post more about the beliefs that I have that would be considered those that pull me left than the ones that mark me as right.
Personally I don’t think Trump defines what is and is not conservative. Conservatism existed before he was in politics and (I hope) will exist afterward, and I don’t think support for him should be a litmus test for conservatism. I also notice that Classical Liberals post both here and in AskConservatives, and seem to be accepted as both liberals and conservatives.
A lot of people do challenge my right-leaning or center-right flair, though. I suspect that it inspires some on the left to see that not all people on the right are enamored of Trump. I don’t feel that I can accurately describe myself as on the left in the US, though I’m willing to question myself about it.
So this seems like a space for the question. Would you like all non-Trump supporters to identify as liberals? What are some beliefs and political positions someone could have that would make you say, “I wouldn’t accept that person being called a liberal”?
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You should stay with Center Right, just because everyone on /r/conservative and r/AskConservatives act like they’re being brigaded any time a sane conservative speaks out against MAGAs fascist bullshit.
If we are to survive the next 4 years, we need you sane conservatives to be the voice of reason with some of these crazy fucks. Being a non-MAGA Republican is really important right now, especially if you have the balls to speak your mind.
But, if you find yourself becoming a liberal, welcome. đ
I donât care what they call themselves. I care about what they do, whether they stick to their values, and whether or not theyâre living in the same reality that I am.
I’ve never heard anyone under 70 identify as a “liberal” in real life.
That term is really dated at this point.
Liberal is an ideology. The right has historically been anti-liberal, as its policies have always been largely anti-freedom.
Just becomes someone agrees that Trump is an authoritarian doesn’t mean they’re suddenly pro-liberty.
Anybody who supports liberal democracy, whether they be a conservative or progressive, is a liberal.
Liberal simply means you at a minimum support classical liberal ideas and institutions.Â
I think…as long as we can agree that Trump needs to go…we can work together to achieve that goal…and then work on sorting out our differences after.
Trump is not a conservative. He is however right wing. I would describe him as an authoritarian right-wing progressive. That’s small-p progressive as opposed to the capital-P Progressive movement. By progressive I mean that he believes he has the right to use government resources to actively shape society to fit his ideal vision, instead of letting the culture develop organically.
To answer your question, you should describe yourself based on your positions, not based on which public figures you like or don’t like. People come and go, but you’ll always have your principles.
>If someone is against Trump but otherwise believes they’re toward the right
There’s no such thing.
“Liberal” refers to a specific political ideology. It existed before Trump and means a lot more than just “does not support Trump”. There’s no reason for someone to call themselves a liberal if they’re not a liberal.
Not really, no. I just think they have an appropriate belief on extremist authoritarianism. Being anti-authoritarian doesnât fully align us: it does align us against authoritarianism though.
I donât really care what they call themselves. If theyâre anti-Trump conservatives it seems like it would make the most sense for them to identify as conservatives.
Someone can be for stuff like shrinking the social safety net, cutting regulations, and lowering taxes while also being vehemently anti-Trump. To me that person is still a conservative.
I get attacked on this sub because Iâm conservative. I even get accused of lying because people wonât believe I donât support Trump.
I get attacked askconservatives for not supporting Trump. I even get called a liar for saying Iâm conservative.
But it doesnât happen as much as it used to because I now have a policy of blocking people who call me a liar.Â
“Center Right” to me mostly implies an actual small government bipartisan conservative.
there may be a generational component to the questioning. I am in my 40s so my memory of the GOP is very different from someone 20 years younger than me and Center Right is something I have a decent mental model for. it’s the kind of republican democrats argue with about budget stuff primarily, and a bit of gun control and abortion but those are both a bit performative. they probably love the military but in this day and age probably aren’t a neocon. I wouldn’t assume they voted for Trump, but I wouldn’t assume they voted for Kamala either. likely to have not voted for either. I probably disagree with them about literally every policy but they are normal people.
I’ll let the liberals define what their red lines are, I’m not actually too sure how Center Right differs from Center Left right now. (me personally, I wouldn’t really consider someone a liberal if they were anti-choice or held socially/fiscally conservative views, but I find I’m often a little miscalibrated about centrist views.)
that said, I think y’all have some of the same issues that we on the far left do with the flairs where people get tetchy once they see them because we parse as potential enemies. I have to clarify how I vote pretty frequently too.
No, but they should identify as Democratic voters. Or finally accept that they’re not going to change the party they had been a part of and just become Democrats.
There’s one party of fiscal and social responsibility, and it’s the Democratic Party. The GOP is just the party of inaccurate branding based on wishful thinking and infantile trollishness.
>Do you agree that because Trump is considered the candidate on the right, people must support him to maintain a conservative position?
People on the right support Trump because they are right wing and Trump is checking off the boxes on their wishlist. It’s not so much that they “have to” support Trump. It’s that, if they’re honest, then it makes perfect sense that they would support the politician that most aligns with them. And Trump is them but with money and attention — which they are resentful to everyone else for not having themselves.
Trump fits who Republicans have been angrily asking for since I was a kid. I can’t think of another Republican who has come as close to fitting their longstanding, loudly wished for ideal.
You’re right that Trump doesn’t define “what is and is not conservative.” But he does act in a way that aligns with why self-described conservatives voted for him.
>I’ve had a lot of people questioning my flair.
I used to identify as “Center Right.” Then I saw the Tea Party, realized all the people I knew who were like that weren’t the fringe, and that it was me and some of my other friends who were the fringe. So I corrected my mistake.
Other examples of people realizing they were the fringe include Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz. Of course, their correction was to align themselves with the lunatics to avoid the same fate as the first “Young Gun” that lost his seat.
I’ll add that Cruz was a pretty decent lite version of the quintessential Republican, but even he didn’t really realize what his party was apparently until after he refused to endorse Trump during the convention. He’s just mentioned alongside Graham as a way to show the range of Republicans who misunderstood their own party. I myself used to work for a Republican who didn’t understand Republicans.
I think everyone is missing the point.
To be far right means to be against communism in all its forms.
To be far left means to be against capitalism in all its forms.
To be a liberal means that you believe in individual rights, individual responsibilities, and the right to self determination.
Centrists are people who could get down with some government protecting their interests while expressing as much freedom as they can handle at the cost of taxes, courts, a military, and police/prison system.
Nazis and communists canât have a debate because theyâre both totalitarian collectivists. They want the same thing for almost the same reason, thatâs why theyâre the most bitter ideological enemies of the 20th and probably 21st centuries. They want to âfreeâ themselves from capitalism and theyâre trying to use corporations to do it.
Everyone who hasnât seen a political compass is Polish. Theyâre both balls deep in Poland right now trying to unleash Rokuâs Basilisk (artificial intelligence) and turn the tide of the war in their favor. Poland is going to suffer no matter what happens, and weâre reading the newspaper in a cardboard bomb shelter.
I have a few friends that are on the right but vehemently hate Donald Trump for all the right reasons. They generally will identify as being center right or conservative but say they are a Never Trump Republican.
So the thing with these terms is that they have meaning in context. In the American context we call someone on the furthest right of the Republican Party of conservative and people more towards the left of the party center right. But those terms are technically inaccurate and have been for quite some time. The Republican party is not a party for people who are center right and conservative. It is a far right party.
Are you center right? Probably.
Are the people I see flared center right or conservative here and in other places technically accurately flair? Yeah I guess so but also not really.
So of course, a lot of people who are on the left see a center right or a conservative flare and associate it with what the Republican Party is today and will treat them as such
I’m liberal Texan, which puts me about moderate left.
My dad and exhusband were both republican. Since the 80s, i disagreed with policy, but could debate/voice opinions freely (but rarely). My dad passed away and my now ex is a trumper. I refuse to discuss anything related to that with him. Although he always tries to bait me.
I can have meaningful discussions with a moderate R, but not maga. A moderate R can handle hearing the other side (usually). But I’m not changing their minds and they are not changing mine. Therefore i do not discuss politics with the right.
No, I am very liberal but I have a group of people I called Trump and then I call other people conservatives. Trump is not conservative.
FYI, we are adjusting some flairs and there is a Never Trump Republican flair that would probably suit you better.
Iâm not telling you that should switch to it but this is as good as time as I need to announce that itâs available to you and others who might find it more appropriate.
No I think itâs a good thing for people to still identify as Republicans and openly oppose the gross abuses of power that the Trump administration has committed.
Eh not really? It feels inaccurate and could rub people the wrong way. Ik itâs a big issue on dating apps with conservative men trying to sleep with liberal women.
I think the best way to put it would be more of a centralist or moderate that leans more to the right. If someone asks further you could mention that you lean right but donât like trump. Center right also probably accurately reflects your stance, the issue is that thereâs conservatives who do think criticizing trump makes you not a conservative. Partly because thatâs how trump kinda runs, if you arenât with him you arenât a âtrue conservativeâ.
But yeah, saying youâre a liberal is going to get you a lot of hate, especially since liberal views are pretty skewed to the left. Examples include:
No, just say what you are. Being anti-Trump doesnât automatically make you a liberal or a leftist.
>I also said that equality is a conservative US value from the Declaration of Independence.
Maybe, but âequalityâ isnât something I typically see emphasized in modern or historical conservative thought. Conservatism, at its core, is about preserving tradition, hierarchy, authority, faith, property rights, and ânatural law.â Thatâs not exactly a recipe for equality across the board. I mean, it wasnât conservatives out there fighting for womenâs suffrage or civil rights, those were progressives and leftists.
>Personally I donât think Trump defines what is and is not conservative. Conservatism existed before he was in politics and (I hope) will exist afterward, and I donât think support for him should be a litmus test for conservatism.
I agree that conservatism isnât just Trump, but you canât ignore his influence. The conservative movement as it exists today is heavily shaped by him. Whether you like it or not, a lot of his policies and rhetoric have been embraced by mainstream conservatives. What would you call it? Itâs definitely not progressive.
>A lot of people do challenge my right-leaning or center-right flair, though. I suspect that it inspires some on the left to see that not all people on the right are enamored of Trump. I donât feel that I can accurately describe myself as on the left in the US, though Iâm willing to question myself about it.
Honestly, I donât care what label someone slaps on themselves. Call yourself whatever you want. What matters more is whether your values are grounded in reality and actually help people.
>What are some beliefs and political positions someone could have that would make you say, âI wouldnât accept that person being called a liberalâ?
If theyâre just blatantly not aligned with liberal principles. Liberalism is about individual liberty, political equality, private property rights, secular governance, market economies, democratic institutions etc. If youâre actively opposed to most of that, then calling yourself a liberal doesnât really make sense. I wouldnât call myself a liberal just because I support equality and secular governance. I think I would need to support things like a market economy and private property rights.
Nah just say you’re a conservative but not an extremist, which means you naturally vote for Democrats at this point.
>I also said that equality is a conservative US value from the Declaration of Independence.
It’s a liberal value. The framers were liberals at the time; conservatives were loyalists to the crown and didn’t want independence. It’s also a liberal value in that equality under the law is a core tenet of liberalism, the specific ideology that used to be followed by both Democrats and Republicans, but now is only followed by Democrats.
>Personally I don’t think Trump defines what is and is not conservative. Conservatism existed before he was in politics and (I hope) will exist afterward, and I don’t think support for him should be a litmus test for conservatism.
He doesn’t define what conservatism is, but he is certainly under the umbrella of conservatism. Conservatism as a defined ideology has existed since the time of the French Revolution, and its core tenets are adherence to hierarchy with some people being higher on the social hierarchy than others. Its original ideologues were people like Joseph de Maistre and Edmund Burke, who advocated for a society ruled by aristocrats, in opposition to leftists, who wanted society to be more democratic with flattened hierarchies. Trump wants a society ruled by a select few and opposes democracy, putting him under the conservative (rightist) umbrella, although he’s very very far to the right.
If you don’t believe in making changes to society for the sake of increasing egalitarianism and reducing hierarchy, you’re probably fine to label yourself center-right. Center-right could also fall under liberal, but honestly just pick whatever you think makes the most sense.
On the one hand…
Liking Trump isn’t what makes one a conservative. Hating Trump isn’t what makes one a Liberal. I bet Mitt Romney and Liz Cheney fucking LOATHE Trump. That doesn’t magically make them liberals.
On the other hand…
>Personally I don’t think Trump defines what is and is not conservative.
You are absolutely kidding yourself.
Conservatism has been THIS since Reagan, with the ONE exception of Bush Sr. They just hid the BS better. They run on hate, they lower taxes for the rich, and they fuck the economy doing so.
That’s all they do. Run on hate, lower taxes for the rich, and hand off a shitty economy to Democrats to fix. That’s been Republican/”Conservative” for the last 40-50 years. That IS “conservatism” now.
You seem halfway sane, and I bet if you looked at Democrat positions and actions instead of what Republicans SAY is Democrat positions and actions, you’d find that you were a fairly boring middle of the road Democrats… Because Democrats ARE the Center Right party in America. Thanks Clintons… Grumble…
Lee Atwater on the Southern Strategy…
>You start out in 1954 by saying, âNigger, nigger, nigger.â By 1968 you canât say âniggerââthat hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, statesâ rights, and all that stuff, and youâre getting so abstract. Now, youâre talking about cutting taxes, and all these things youâre talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.⌠âWe want to cut this,â is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than âNigger, nigger.â
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._economic_performance_by_presidential_party
Democrats are FAR better at job creation and we create FAR less recessions.
Iâd call them a RINO I guess.
If someone opposes Trump but is otherwise on the right, I’d consider them a conservative. Conservative doesn’t necessarily imply Trump supporter/voter to me.
People get hung up on flairs a lot here. Overall I like them as they can facilitate conversation sometimes, but they do have their downsides.
Doesnât matter the label. Itâs the substance that counts
No. âLiberalâ has a meaning, itâs not just anti-Trump. Liberals are my allies, right-wingers are not.
Iâve known this moment was coming, when we would face pressure to bring literally anyone anti-Trump into the tent. I canât do that, I have to draw the line somewhere, and I canât abide by right-wing social policy.
Nobody who is on the right socially will ever be someone I’m interested in identifying with.
No
You’re talking about two different things and you should identify yourself as you are. Maybe we need an anti-Trump flair? Either way, I don’t think all liberals are anti-Trump and I don’t think all conservatives are pro-Trump.
I think liberalism is a broad and encompassing term that could accurately describe a vast majority of Americans from left to right. It’s so thoroughly engrained in our society that it may be worth putting specifiers around it, like conservative liberal, progressive liberal, etc. At the very least, it should be a common foundation we can agree to build upon.Â
No I wouldn’t. I think it would water down the term liberal, and make them less effective messengers to the kinds of trump skeptical moderates and conservatives we need to win over.
My simple line for being a liberal ally is that you’re not trying to deprive anyone else of the same access to basic rights and resources that anyone else has in society. If you’re a Conservative who loves guns and low business taxes, I can have a conversation with you. I’d never call you a liberal, but I can discuss policy. If you’re a Conservative who hates the LGBT and find ways to limit who can vote, you can fuck off.
I listen to National Reviews Podcast, and I think they are squarely in the conservative/ hate Trump camp.
I struggle because I would say if we are talking about first principles (importance of freedom, caution about government intervention, fiscal conservatism, respecting tradition & rule of law) of the right, I actually think that is not a bad list, itâs just that very often I donât find Republicans to be particularly aligned to those.
Trump, which I agree with another poster is not that much of a Republican aberration as people think.
Republicans are not fiscal conservatives- they just think money should be spent on the military vs dems on research, education and healthcare. I think we need to work towards a balanced budget. I think democrats need to stop thinking the only way to support activities is to have central government pay for it.
Republicans are not pro freedom when they want to restrict healthcare choices, my freedom from being shot, or my freedom to express my identity in non socially acceptable ways. This current administration is about as anti free speech as weâve seen. I think that many liberals I know (this is not really a policy thing) have lost their willingness to tolerate differences in the way they talk.
Republicans are not more pro tradition, when Bush created Guantanamo Bay, or now with Trumps disappearing campaign. From a straight decorum, Obama (a polite church going man) is wildly more conservative than Trump the swearing crass sexual conqueror.
I donât think I can legit claim to be conservative when I have voted the Green Party candidates more than I have voted for republican ones, but I also kinda am drawn to reclaiming the word conservative (a la Wendell Berry).
Be a conservative but never aline yourself with republicans. That name is shit stained now.
I don’t care what they do, it’s their life, they can make their own decisions.