Some places do. But it’s mostly because you can cram a lot more toilets and urinals into a given space if you have them all combined and use one set of sinks, rather than each having their own room.
And north america is the only one that really worries about people peeping through holes in stalls. The rest of the world usually has doors that actually work like normal doors and don’t leave gaps.
I think the better question is why don’t we have ceiling to floor stalls like they have in parts of Europe, so the only shared space is the sink area and baby changing stations.
Single occupancy bathrooms (which I think you are talking about) takes up a lot of space and costs a good bit more money per user.
There are unisex bathrooms where there is low traffic pedestrians/multiple levels where there are bathrooms. You will most often see this in quieter parts or theyll specifically be unisex so you can change diapers in it
Spoken like a man. Sorry, Have you even been in a busy restaurant or club that has single bathrooms?? The line is ridiculous! Not for men usually but for women and yes it’s dumb as fuck to have single bathrooms gendered.
I’ve been in places where they have completely private toilet stalls, with normal doors and floor to ceiling walls. But they still have shared sinks like gendered bathrooms. This seems like the compromise that no one can make work in the United States.
You fit more toilets in the space, there’s privacy, you don’t have to have two sets of bathrooms, you don’t have to worry about whether there’s a changing table in the men’s room.
What bugs me is when places do have the single use bathrooms and still choose to label them as “Men’s” and “Women’s,” especially when they are identical on the inside. I see that in lots of convenience stores.
Boys are gross ! Even in a corporate environment. I worked at a pharma company. The floor had two single seater bathrooms. Men and women. Then one day they switched signs to all gender. I was amazed going into the former women’s room. There was a couch and a plant etc. within two weeks, it switched back. I’m guessing the women didn’t like sharing.
Have you been in a public bathroom lately? Men piss all over the floors, and there are always drug addicts in stalls shooting up. It is especially a problem in the US because of how dirty people are. No one cleans up after themselves. Once you have had to clean crap off grocery store bathroom walls, or walk into a KFC bathroom after it has been used, ughh. As a man, I would never want to make women share spaces with American men. But in the last 10 years US female bathrooms have almost gotten as bad as well. Some fat woman inn my last office job kept shitting all over the toilet seat and handle; and would leave it there for the janitor to clean up. I am so jealous of Japan’s cleanliness culture.
Single use bathrooms are a great idea. No need to spend time on plumbing, or even pumping out the tank of a honey bucket. Just a room with a bucket. Then you seal it with concrete forever.
“This place is a message… and part of a system of messages… pay attention to it!
Sending this message was important to us. We considered ourselves to be a powerful culture.
This place is not a place of honor… no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here… nothing valued is here.
What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us. This message is a warning about danger.”
In Seattle area it seems like many restaurants are unisex bathrooms now. The airport has big unisex restrooms with like 10-20 locking individual stalls, and shared hand washing area.
My high school was so close to getting it right. For some reason calling in bomb threats to a school was a really common thing around when the high school I went to was being built, so they basically had blast resistant bathroom stalls. Each stall was made of cinderblocks, with a heavy solid full sized door. For some reason they felt the need to still have boys and girls bathrooms separate, I guess because they just liked watching all the girls line up and wait for the toilets while the boys was empty.
In many places there are legal requirements to have men’s and women’s bathrooms. Some of those laws are left over from early feminist campaigns because it used to be common to have just men’s bathrooms which made it hard for women to be in public. Other laws are more recent and generally motivated by anti trans sentiment. Unisex bathrooms defeat one of the main arguments people have against trans people, and make it easier for people to be trans in public.
Some places do what you’re describing though. I’ve also seen multi use bathrooms that are unisex, but have floor to ceiling doors so you have plenty of privacy and then have shared sinks. Unfortunately though, some people absolutely freak out about this. There was a school that tried this and parents lost their goddamn minds about it. Again, it’s often related to anti trans sentiment as people have convinced themselves that males and females being near each other in a bathroom is inherently dangerous, and these same people see unisex bathrooms as a sign of woke brain rot or whatever
Because people are convinced that (1) women will be damaged by the presence of a penis the same room where they pee, (2) men will be contaminated by the existence of tampons, and (3) rapists and creeps will be chastened and deterred by the presence of a sign on the door.
One time in college I was walking from my dorm to my car and was approached by a local news team. Apparently the university started having gender neutral bathrooms. I was totally unaware but they interviewed me about it. I was just like “Yeah, bathroom stalls have doors so I don’t see the issue.”
I’d rather there be separate standup and sit down bathrooms. It would be a lot more efficient to have 1 room with 2-4 urinals and another with a sit down toilet instead of two rooms containing a toilet each.
this is a fair question! with no satisfying answer!
I had a job where my manager wouldn’t even let me CLEAN the opposite-gendered (vs AGAB) single-user bathroom. not just at busy times with other stuff to do: even when it was truly dead and i was bored out of my mind
I’ve been in a place with all unisex bathrooms. Canadian Niagara Falls visitor center. One toilet, one sink per lockable room, gas station/small restaurant style. Not a fan.
Not space efficient, less toilets in the same square footage.
Hand washing ties up toilet time.
No men’s urinals, so another hit to speed/efficiency.
If not in a row, you can’t see when the next room/stall opens. So lots of wandering around looking for open rooms. Peering around corners.
Needs a dedicated cleaning team. The constant need to clean also ties up both a toilet and a sink for another hit on efficiency.
Unique to the location, but narrow hallways to save on space make it awkward to always say “excuse me” to each person you pass. The cleaning cart is a major roadblock.
No coherent line for the next available room. It feels really odd to have a unisex wait line when there is one.
My question is for the bathrooms where it’s just one toilet and one sink and the whole bathroom you lock why do we have gendered bathrooms if it’s just you in there? Like a lot of gas station bathrooms have single bathrooms and they are gendered.
Historically, public bathrooms were gendered in fancier places (ones with rooms enough for separation) because bathrooms were more than places to pee and poop. At least for women. There was often a semi separate lounge area where they could repair/refresh clothing, makeup, and hair during a social event. Also a place to do things like nurse a child, if it was a family event. At private homes, during a party, one of the bedrooms might be set aside for the ladies.
I’m sure it’s a much cheaper option to put 3 stalls in one room vs 3 different rooms. But also keep in mind the number of crazy/drugged up/homeless that exist. Making them do their shenanigans in a shared space probably minimizes the damage they can do.
Because a lot of women feel uncomfortable sharing a space where they might be vulnerable. It can work in a closed environment like a small office where everybody knows each other and is accountable for their behaviour but on a larger scale… you only have to take a cursor glance at criminal history to see why it’s a bad idea.
The bathroom issue is such a nonissue. Go to any packed bar. You’ll see men in the women’s room and women in the men’s room depending on how busy the respective rooms are and its usually met with a weird look at most. I think introducing gender neutral restrooms with actual enclosed stalls would solve everything.
In a lot of places in Europe they have one bathroom with a bunch of fully walled stalls (floor to ceiling, no peeping cracks) and a communal sink. Lockerooms are similar that include private changing stalls and showers as well.
Because a sink in each bathroom uses too much space, and a shared washing space would mean that everyone uses unwashed hands to open and close the heavy stall doors.
Just went back to Australia last year after living in the US and all of their bathrooms have changed to single use. Literally the easiest solution on earth and over here everyone’s too busy fighting to the death over it
takes up more space, and would require extensive remodel of existing facilities. I suspect any new construction leans more towards this direction (if space allows).
>But for the most part, public facilities in Western nations were male-only until the Victorian era, which meant women had to improvise. If they had to be out and about longer than they could hold their bladders, women in the Victorian era would urinate over a gutter (long Victorian skirts allowed for some privacy). Some would even carry a small personal device called a urinette that they could use discretely under their skirts and then pour out, Cavanagh said. Strangely, these urinettes were sometimes shaped like the male genitals.
>This lack of female facilities reflected a notable attitude about women: that they should stay home. This “urinary leash” remains a problem in some developing nations, said Harvey Molotch, a sociologist at New York University and co-editor of “Toilet: The Public Restroom and the Politics of Sharing” (New York University Press, 2010). Women in India today, for example, often have to avoid eating or drinking too much if they have to be out in public, because there is no place for them to go, Molotch told Live Science.
>Thus, the first gender-segregated restrooms were a major step forward for women. Massachusetts passed a law in 1887 requiring workplaces that employed women to have restrooms for them, according to an article in the Rutgers University Law Review. By the 1920s, such laws were the norm.
>Victorian-era Americans were segregated by gender in many spaces, Molotch said. There were ladies-only waiting rooms in train stations, and female-only reading rooms in libraries. As sex segregation has fallen to the wayside in other public spaces, bathrooms remain the last holdout, he said.
The Weird History of Gender-Segregated Bathrooms by Stephanie Pappas for LiveScience, May 9th 2016
the newer buildings built at the university i went to just had bathrooms full of stalls. the walls around the stall didn’t have any gaps above or below and the doors were actual nice wooden doors without gaps. it was one of the best popping experiences on campus and it would be funny sometimes while washing your hands to see someone you didn’t expect come wash their hands next to you
So bathrooms are price per sq.ft one of the largest costs in a building. Anything that makes them less efficient space wise is going to increase costs. The number of fixtures required is based on building usage and population counts so you can’t just have fewer toilets to offset these costs.
Most building owners aren’t going to splurge for more expensive bathrooms when users are already used to having public ones.
here you are asking about men’s vs women’s, meanwhile if it’s a single stall, i don’t care if they gendered the outside bathroom at all. i’m going in if it’s empty.
The turnovers of using bathroom between men and women are different. Men typically are quicker due to the use of urinal and women take longer. If we have 1 bathroom for both gender, then there will be longer wait. There will need to be more spaces too for more stalls.
Whenever this comes up, Americans act like figuring it out is quantum physics. In Sweden, there are some places that have the bathrooms separated still, sure. I can’t honestly say that a majority (because I don’t know the actual stats) but plenty of places do it like this:
Bathrooms and stalls are gender neutral. Urinals are in a separate room.
Partially due to space, cost, and the fact that many bathrooms were already built.
Building new facilities is much easier, you just plan around it. The consideration here comes from space and efficiency, if you have 10 toilets and urinals in the same bathroom you may only need 3-5 sinks, 1-2 paper towel dispensers, etc. But if you make them individual you’ll need a sink, dispenser, soap, toilet seat cover dispenser, ventilation, etc for each one. That adds a lot more to the cost.
Then there’s existing facilities. In order to convert them you’d need to consider plumbing rearrangements, ventilation, demolition, electrical wiring for the lights, etc. All of that adds cost. Then there’s the fact that it won’t be usable during the time of construction, removing that facility for all people until it’s completed and forcing people to use other options, either another bathroom or portable stalls which also add cost.
Comments
So you use the bathroom and then throw it away?
Some places do. But it’s mostly because you can cram a lot more toilets and urinals into a given space if you have them all combined and use one set of sinks, rather than each having their own room.
And north america is the only one that really worries about people peeping through holes in stalls. The rest of the world usually has doors that actually work like normal doors and don’t leave gaps.
Because it would take up way more space.
It’s just more space efficient and cheaper to have large bathrooms.
And the people who complain about who uses the bathroom don’t want a proper solution, they just want to complain about people they don’t like.
I think the better question is why don’t we have ceiling to floor stalls like they have in parts of Europe, so the only shared space is the sink area and baby changing stations.
Single occupancy bathrooms (which I think you are talking about) takes up a lot of space and costs a good bit more money per user.
There are unisex bathrooms where there is low traffic pedestrians/multiple levels where there are bathrooms. You will most often see this in quieter parts or theyll specifically be unisex so you can change diapers in it
Or a whole row of stalls with good doors, and a general-use handwashing area for all?
I think it’s common in Europe? (based on that one movie I watched)
whats your gender
The bitter truth is that bathrooms are the spaces where women can get assaulted mainly because it’s a bit isolated and no cctv inside..
So unisex bathroom might work but many women might feel wary going to them
Spoken like a man. Sorry, Have you even been in a busy restaurant or club that has single bathrooms?? The line is ridiculous! Not for men usually but for women and yes it’s dumb as fuck to have single bathrooms gendered.
I don’t want to be In an isolated room with men. That’s incredibly dangerous
I don’t want to. That’s why.
Many places do
Not to mention the wait lines and the whole transgender situation
I’ve been in places where they have completely private toilet stalls, with normal doors and floor to ceiling walls. But they still have shared sinks like gendered bathrooms. This seems like the compromise that no one can make work in the United States.
You fit more toilets in the space, there’s privacy, you don’t have to have two sets of bathrooms, you don’t have to worry about whether there’s a changing table in the men’s room.
What bugs me is when places do have the single use bathrooms and still choose to label them as “Men’s” and “Women’s,” especially when they are identical on the inside. I see that in lots of convenience stores.
Boys are gross ! Even in a corporate environment. I worked at a pharma company. The floor had two single seater bathrooms. Men and women. Then one day they switched signs to all gender. I was amazed going into the former women’s room. There was a couch and a plant etc. within two weeks, it switched back. I’m guessing the women didn’t like sharing.
Have you been in a public bathroom lately? Men piss all over the floors, and there are always drug addicts in stalls shooting up. It is especially a problem in the US because of how dirty people are. No one cleans up after themselves. Once you have had to clean crap off grocery store bathroom walls, or walk into a KFC bathroom after it has been used, ughh. As a man, I would never want to make women share spaces with American men. But in the last 10 years US female bathrooms have almost gotten as bad as well. Some fat woman inn my last office job kept shitting all over the toilet seat and handle; and would leave it there for the janitor to clean up. I am so jealous of Japan’s cleanliness culture.
Single use bathrooms are a great idea. No need to spend time on plumbing, or even pumping out the tank of a honey bucket. Just a room with a bucket. Then you seal it with concrete forever.
“This place is a message… and part of a system of messages… pay attention to it!
Sending this message was important to us. We considered ourselves to be a powerful culture.
This place is not a place of honor… no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here… nothing valued is here.
What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us. This message is a warning about danger.”
In Seattle area it seems like many restaurants are unisex bathrooms now. The airport has big unisex restrooms with like 10-20 locking individual stalls, and shared hand washing area.
My high school was so close to getting it right. For some reason calling in bomb threats to a school was a really common thing around when the high school I went to was being built, so they basically had blast resistant bathroom stalls. Each stall was made of cinderblocks, with a heavy solid full sized door. For some reason they felt the need to still have boys and girls bathrooms separate, I guess because they just liked watching all the girls line up and wait for the toilets while the boys was empty.
In many places there are legal requirements to have men’s and women’s bathrooms. Some of those laws are left over from early feminist campaigns because it used to be common to have just men’s bathrooms which made it hard for women to be in public. Other laws are more recent and generally motivated by anti trans sentiment. Unisex bathrooms defeat one of the main arguments people have against trans people, and make it easier for people to be trans in public.
Some places do what you’re describing though. I’ve also seen multi use bathrooms that are unisex, but have floor to ceiling doors so you have plenty of privacy and then have shared sinks. Unfortunately though, some people absolutely freak out about this. There was a school that tried this and parents lost their goddamn minds about it. Again, it’s often related to anti trans sentiment as people have convinced themselves that males and females being near each other in a bathroom is inherently dangerous, and these same people see unisex bathrooms as a sign of woke brain rot or whatever
Single use plastics are already enough of a problem let alone disposable toilets!
Single use sounds like the bathroom is used once then closed permanently.
How else would I get unsolicited compliments! No one is nicer than drunk girls in a public bathroom! Haha
Because people are convinced that (1) women will be damaged by the presence of a penis the same room where they pee, (2) men will be contaminated by the existence of tampons, and (3) rapists and creeps will be chastened and deterred by the presence of a sign on the door.
An how would the girls spread gossips and chat with each other?
Cost and needed availability like airports and sporting events. Single stalls would never work.
One time in college I was walking from my dorm to my car and was approached by a local news team. Apparently the university started having gender neutral bathrooms. I was totally unaware but they interviewed me about it. I was just like “Yeah, bathroom stalls have doors so I don’t see the issue.”
I’d rather there be separate standup and sit down bathrooms. It would be a lot more efficient to have 1 room with 2-4 urinals and another with a sit down toilet instead of two rooms containing a toilet each.
this is a fair question! with no satisfying answer!
I had a job where my manager wouldn’t even let me CLEAN the opposite-gendered (vs AGAB) single-user bathroom. not just at busy times with other stuff to do: even when it was truly dead and i was bored out of my mind
That is the third option and I just don’t understand why they can’t share the Family Bathroom for Moms…
Cost
I’m assuming space limitations
Ever try to use the bathroom during intermission at a play?
I’ve been in a place with all unisex bathrooms. Canadian Niagara Falls visitor center. One toilet, one sink per lockable room, gas station/small restaurant style. Not a fan.
Single use bathrooms? We already have them, they’re called diapers.
I was at a local university men’s room. 4 stalls along a wall. Not one of them had a door. I decided to hold it.
Had them at old work. Only time as a man I’ve ever had to queue for the toilet. 0/10
There should be two bathrooms. Sit down’s and stand up’s.
What– throw them away after one use?
No, thanks. Girls take too long and will likely create longer queues than they already do with women bathrooms
I don’t think you mean single use. You mean gender neutral
All bathrooms I use become single-use.
Or maybe like some co-ed college dorms. Fully enclosed small shitters and then a common sink area.
My biggest issue is, why are any single occupancy bathrooms for anyone specific? Why male or female if it’s only one person at a time?
My question is for the bathrooms where it’s just one toilet and one sink and the whole bathroom you lock why do we have gendered bathrooms if it’s just you in there? Like a lot of gas station bathrooms have single bathrooms and they are gendered.
OP said “single use” which people are taking to mean “single person”, and in reality I think they meant “gender neutral”. Confusing thread lol
The line will be wrapped around the building.
Have you ever been to a professional sports game? You’re never going to see the game waiting on the single toilet
Historically, public bathrooms were gendered in fancier places (ones with rooms enough for separation) because bathrooms were more than places to pee and poop. At least for women. There was often a semi separate lounge area where they could repair/refresh clothing, makeup, and hair during a social event. Also a place to do things like nurse a child, if it was a family event. At private homes, during a party, one of the bedrooms might be set aside for the ladies.
I’m sure it’s a much cheaper option to put 3 stalls in one room vs 3 different rooms. But also keep in mind the number of crazy/drugged up/homeless that exist. Making them do their shenanigans in a shared space probably minimizes the damage they can do.
It’d be a waste to demolish a bathroom after one use probably.
Because a lot of women feel uncomfortable sharing a space where they might be vulnerable. It can work in a closed environment like a small office where everybody knows each other and is accountable for their behaviour but on a larger scale… you only have to take a cursor glance at criminal history to see why it’s a bad idea.
The bathroom issue is such a nonissue. Go to any packed bar. You’ll see men in the women’s room and women in the men’s room depending on how busy the respective rooms are and its usually met with a weird look at most. I think introducing gender neutral restrooms with actual enclosed stalls would solve everything.
In a lot of places in Europe they have one bathroom with a bunch of fully walled stalls (floor to ceiling, no peeping cracks) and a communal sink. Lockerooms are similar that include private changing stalls and showers as well.
Because a sink in each bathroom uses too much space, and a shared washing space would mean that everyone uses unwashed hands to open and close the heavy stall doors.
Just went back to Australia last year after living in the US and all of their bathrooms have changed to single use. Literally the easiest solution on earth and over here everyone’s too busy fighting to the death over it
takes up more space, and would require extensive remodel of existing facilities. I suspect any new construction leans more towards this direction (if space allows).
>But for the most part, public facilities in Western nations were male-only until the Victorian era, which meant women had to improvise. If they had to be out and about longer than they could hold their bladders, women in the Victorian era would urinate over a gutter (long Victorian skirts allowed for some privacy). Some would even carry a small personal device called a urinette that they could use discretely under their skirts and then pour out, Cavanagh said. Strangely, these urinettes were sometimes shaped like the male genitals.
>This lack of female facilities reflected a notable attitude about women: that they should stay home. This “urinary leash” remains a problem in some developing nations, said Harvey Molotch, a sociologist at New York University and co-editor of “Toilet: The Public Restroom and the Politics of Sharing” (New York University Press, 2010). Women in India today, for example, often have to avoid eating or drinking too much if they have to be out in public, because there is no place for them to go, Molotch told Live Science.
>Thus, the first gender-segregated restrooms were a major step forward for women. Massachusetts passed a law in 1887 requiring workplaces that employed women to have restrooms for them, according to an article in the Rutgers University Law Review. By the 1920s, such laws were the norm.
>Victorian-era Americans were segregated by gender in many spaces, Molotch said. There were ladies-only waiting rooms in train stations, and female-only reading rooms in libraries. As sex segregation has fallen to the wayside in other public spaces, bathrooms remain the last holdout, he said.
The Weird History of Gender-Segregated Bathrooms by Stephanie Pappas for LiveScience, May 9th 2016
https://www.livescience.com/54692-why-bathrooms-are-gender-segregated.html
Lots of places do lol. It makes republicans freak out even though it’s incredibly benign and helpful for many people.
They do have these, but they take up way more space. So might not really be practical for every location.
Lots of people need to pee
I have been to a number of restaurants where the restrooms are individual stalls with sinks outside in an open space. Works beautifully
Single use bathrooms would be very expensive because you’d have to tear down and rebuild the bathroom after every use.
We actually do have gender neutral washrooms in my city.
Everybody pees.
Nobody cares.
And if they do, fuck ’em.
Id find it pretty hard to throw out a whole bathroom when you’re done with it
Yes! This!
Some places I’ve been to are like this.
And they call it a family stall
the newer buildings built at the university i went to just had bathrooms full of stalls. the walls around the stall didn’t have any gaps above or below and the doors were actual nice wooden doors without gaps. it was one of the best popping experiences on campus and it would be funny sometimes while washing your hands to see someone you didn’t expect come wash their hands next to you
I have one in my home…..
Tbh the first thing that came to mind was: more bathrooms, less chance to walk into a pool of pee when doing my business
So bathrooms are price per sq.ft one of the largest costs in a building. Anything that makes them less efficient space wise is going to increase costs. The number of fixtures required is based on building usage and population counts so you can’t just have fewer toilets to offset these costs.
Most building owners aren’t going to splurge for more expensive bathrooms when users are already used to having public ones.
I went to a music venue that had this. Two giant gender neutral rooms of individual stalls and some sinks. Nothing more. Nobody complained.
Conservatives.
Drug overdoses or other negative scenario/emergency.
here you are asking about men’s vs women’s, meanwhile if it’s a single stall, i don’t care if they gendered the outside bathroom at all. i’m going in if it’s empty.
San Francisco recently built unisex bathrooms across McCovey Cove by Oracle Park (where Giants play).
A bunch of stalls and a shared sink area.
I bet you would get used to it and I wouldn’t call it uncomfortable, but it was different hearing a bunch of ladies talking while I was taking a dump.
We would go through a LOT of bathrooms if they were only single use. That sounds really bad for the environment.
At least with the standard “men” and “women” bathrooms, they get reused.
The turnovers of using bathroom between men and women are different. Men typically are quicker due to the use of urinal and women take longer. If we have 1 bathroom for both gender, then there will be longer wait. There will need to be more spaces too for more stalls.
Whenever this comes up, Americans act like figuring it out is quantum physics. In Sweden, there are some places that have the bathrooms separated still, sure. I can’t honestly say that a majority (because I don’t know the actual stats) but plenty of places do it like this:
Bathrooms and stalls are gender neutral. Urinals are in a separate room.
Not that hard.
Because depending on the capacity of the venue a single toilet even if it’s two to replace the men’s and women’s room is not enough.
Men’s rooms are great because we can pile a bunch of dudes just taking a piss in a lot tighter space than closed off stalls.
Would this work in a stadium or airport?
One gender is messier than the other.
Partially due to space, cost, and the fact that many bathrooms were already built.
Building new facilities is much easier, you just plan around it. The consideration here comes from space and efficiency, if you have 10 toilets and urinals in the same bathroom you may only need 3-5 sinks, 1-2 paper towel dispensers, etc. But if you make them individual you’ll need a sink, dispenser, soap, toilet seat cover dispenser, ventilation, etc for each one. That adds a lot more to the cost.
Then there’s existing facilities. In order to convert them you’d need to consider plumbing rearrangements, ventilation, demolition, electrical wiring for the lights, etc. All of that adds cost. Then there’s the fact that it won’t be usable during the time of construction, removing that facility for all people until it’s completed and forcing people to use other options, either another bathroom or portable stalls which also add cost.
So, a lot of it comes down to money.
Because men cannot be trusted
Single use bathrooms. You poop once once and it disappears into the void for eternity.
You can tell a male asked this question
Cost. Construction cost, space needs would be much higher.
Because people lock themselves in there and OD
Yeah, that’s going to work at a sports stadium
Cubical doors that don’t have gaps at the side would be a good start.