I really need some perspective here. I’ve been talking to this guy for a few months, and we finally met for the first time this last week. It was a great experience– he’s a nice guy, and we’ve had some great conversations about everything ranging from hobbies to games to history to philosophy.
He told me today that he collects historical flags, and I asked to see his collection. While he was getting photos together, I mentioned that my grandfather (who fought in WWII) made custom clocks out of wood he salvaged from his time in Germany. He, in turn, told me his grandfather was a Nazi.
Now I know that that has little to no bearing on his personal beliefs, but it was still surprising. He told me that while his grandfather had destroyed his own uniform (he expressed that part of him wish he hadn’t if only for historical preservation), they still had photo albums from that time and a Christmas card from Hitler.
… alright.
He sends photos of his flag collection. North Korea, occupied South Korea, the Ottoman Empire, Taiwan.
Now, if I’d seen the collection independently of our earlier conversation, I might not have thought much of it, but… North Korea, occupied South Korea, and the Ottoman empire were all authoritarian regimes that committed atrocities.
I pivot the conversation towards politics. He tells me he’s passionate about some of the same things I am, but mentions that he’s got nuanced opinions on equity and equality– he essentially said that if we were looking for true equality, we’d have to do some horrific things to people (this sounds fucking awful, but in the context of philosophy there’s the idea that “true equality” is complete mediocrity– i.e. elevates the below average and weighs down the above-average).
He also said that genetics determine much of what you do in life, i.e. that you can be better or worse at things than other people… which again sounds awful, except he’s a geneticist & focuses on gene therapy to rectify genetic disease.
I plan on talking to him about it, but my family says that I’m absolutely insane to even think this might be a concern. They’re completely hand-waving it and telling me I’m looking way too far into it, and my intuition isn’t flying any red flags, but I’m concerned that I’m filling in the blanks here with what I perceive to be the most flattering justifications. I also feel like he side-stepped the questions I implied by asking about politics and sharing my views– he refused to put himself in a category (which is fine– I think many issues are too nuanced to have a solid black or white stance on, but some of them should be pretty clear?) but I feel like for all the talking we did I still don’t have a clear picture of his deeper beliefs.
I specifically mentioned I wasn’t interested in inviting someone who couldn’t handle a colorful/diverse social circle into my life, but he didn’t really address it in the flurry of other lines of inquiry.
Could he just be a history nerd? How the hell do I even ask him about this without being direct? Clearly talking about politics wasn’t it.
[And because I don’t know if he’s on Reddit and this is all very specific: if you’re reading this… Sorry, dude, but come on! You can’t look at all that and blame me for wondering!]
Comments
You’re not crazy for clocking weird vibes, especially when history hobbies blur into glorification. Just ask him plainly how he feels about fascism and human rights, his reaction will tell you more than any red flag ever could.
Personally? The combination of those things would make me tap the fuck out, I don’t need to be dealing with that shit
Eh, lots of people have fascination with authoritarianism and fascism. If a dude likes horror movies you don’t assume he’s a serial killer.
And genetics play a huge part in how we turn out as people. It’s proven science not racism.
I’m about as far from nazi as it gets and I hold similar beliefs. Having to do horrible things to achieve equality is quite extreme but isnt completely out there either. I don’t think true equality is achievable without sacrifices I wouldn’t want to make.
…..on second thought definitely don’t rule out nazi
RED FLAGS!!! RUN!!!!
This sounds like a tricky situation, but hopefully I can provide some perspective on it.
The problem ultimately comes down to if you are willing to be involved with someone who refuses to align to any specific ideology and instead prefers independent thought. Generally speaking, we have established ideologies in place because it provides us (as a society) with comfort and a feeling of normalcy. When someone ascribes to an ideology, it’s easier to get a wider broad understanding of what it is that person actually believes in. People who reject formalised ideologies tend to cause uncertainty, as there is a lot of unknowns relating to finer views and opinions. Independent thinkers are often ostracised for this reason. Historically speaking, when looking at anti-culture movements in the past, these people were often seen as outcasts or degenerates for going against the status-quo (think punk culture in the 80s). Once the ideology was accepted by culture at large, it becomes more digestible to the public. My thoughts are we as humans are fearful of the unknown. Truthfully, it sounds like you met someone who genuinely is colourful and diverse in the truest sense.
My advice is to consider what it is you want specifically. If you’d prefer someone who is colourful/diverse but within the realms of an accepted and formalised ideology, he may not be the one for you. If you are willing to accept the idea that someone may challenge you intellectually in often uncomfortable ways (and it turns out possibly challenged by you), it sounds like you’d both be a good fit. Ultimately, only you can decide what it is you value more in a potential relationship. Perhaps it is early days, but I’d also suggest getting to know him naturally (ie without interrogating him) along with the finer nuances of his beliefs- if anything it will be interesting.
As for the question whether he is a Nazi or not, I’d say it is possible, but unlikely. Genuine followers of Nazi ideology tend to be very vocal about their beliefs and choose not to waste their time with those who disagree (by virtue of being extremely close-minded). It’s likely he is fascinated by authoritarianism throughout history, but you’ll find there are many people like this who would easily agree that these regimes caused mass suffering and therefore likely not something to he commended.
I hope this provides you some answers and perspective, best of luck with whatever decision you stick with.
Honestly, having flags of North Korea and occupied South Korea, at least if he isn’t actually Korean (which he likely isn’t if he’s descended from a Nazi lol) and doesn’t just collect flags, is always a bad sign. Him saying he has “nuanced opinions on equity and equality” is also always a bad sign (especially if he used the word nuanced). His opinion on “true equality” kinda sounds like basic common sense that nobody who actually cares about equity/equality would actually make a stink about, because that’s clearly not what advocates are actually talking about.
I wouldn’t try to talk to him, I’d just end it personally.
My great grandfather (mothers side) volunteered to be a mechanic in the Luftwaffe because at that time, door to door recruitment by force and coercion was a thing. He did so to avoid the Wehrmacht and the eastern front. If he spoke against the reich, he would’ve been sent to a camp as a political prisoner. So he did this out of self preservation (they lived in Berlin – Zehlendorf) by citing that he maintained the delivery truck for the family bakery, which legitimately always had something wrong with it. So they took him at his word, and he did his time working on plane engines.
My great grandmother (mother’s side) had to volunteer to do something, or same thing….off to a camp. She volunteered to do a 6 month term of service at a textile factory. There was no choice. I can’t remember what the specific term is for this service, basically civil service for the war effort. Canadian women fought to get jobs in munition plants for the job security and pay, it wasn’t mandatory.
After the war he and my great grandmother came to Canada. That doesn’t make me a Nazi. That’s just an example of course of how things went down for countless millions of Germans at that time.
Paternally, my grandfather was at Juno beach and later wounded near Caen in the battle for the Carpiquet airfield. Little bit of irony there.
I think your bf is a history nerd, I say so because I’m the same….albeit probably not as in depth as he. I’m big into European WW2 stuff, East Germany, North Korea (my cousins wife is Korean), Afghanistan (that was my war) and a bunch of other stuff.
Maybe he’s a little bit in a different plain than most (your comments about true equality) but maybe because he’s really really into the history.
All of this of course is coming from a sleep fucked Canadian with 2 wienerdogs.
That’s just my 2 cents….so I guess about 0.7 of a US cent.
He just sounds like a history nerd to me. But, you two don’t sound very compatible. You’ve barely scratched the surface and you’re already this rattled, it doesn’t sound like this will get very far.
I don’t necessarily think he’s a Nazi, but I can tell you that I wouldn’t date this guy anyway because he sounds like a fucking weirdo, regardless of his personal politics 🤷
Nope nope nope nope nope
A true scientist would know we have ABSOLUTELY NO FREAKING CLUE about what sort of person you’ll be from our understanding of genetics. Anyone who says different is lying or misinformed. There is simply no (robust) evidence to support such a claim and the more we learn about epigenetics, the more we’ll realize how wrong our current understanding of polygenic traits (aka height, intelligence, eye color etc) is.
Run- and tell him a true scientist doesn’t make broad claims like that. Or don’t tell him because that won’t make any difference but I am a scientist telling you that you cannot know what someone will be like based on their genetics (as we currently understand) and no one should ever try to make such a broad statement. Perhaps not a nazi but def a eugenicist and one who can’t read scientific literature at that (if he could he wouldn’t be saying such bs and wouldn’t be a eugenicist). Run.
None of this screams “Neo-Nazi” to me but you don’t need an excuse to end a relationship you don’t want to be in.
🚩🚩🚩 nope. This is the kinda guy that’s gonna stab you one day. He waited TOO LONG to disclose any of that info. Anyone who keeps morbid artifacts like that around has some sort of deep buried fetish/obsession/respect for it. If ANY REASONABLE person found such things in their house, they’d RUN to the nearest museum to donate it and get it out of their possession. Yuck!
Either way, you need to be leaning HARD into standing up for human rights and decency. See how he reacts. If you feel safe to confront him about it, do so. If not, this is a great example of a time to “slow fade”. Just give him drier and drier responses until he loses interest.
If you have to ask, there are enough red flags and you should book it away from him. Maybe he isn’t a straight up nazi, or a “self identified” nazi….. but if you gotta ask…..
Any guy worth being around should really be putting off clear, not-a-Nazi vibes. That’s not a high bar.
Obsession with genetics is a big red flag.
Whatever you had me going run away when he focuses on equality ad mediocrity a right wing talking point and a belief in genetic determinism which is basically modern eugenics.
I think he should move on, and find a normal non leftist to date, for his sanity do him a favor and leave.
lmfao i bet u see n*zis everywhere, especially when someone tells you that they will NOT affirm your identity as a “minor-attracted person”
Ask him directly
Legit this all sounds like things I clocked on this dude I talked to years ago who ended up being a nazi. And the exact excuses I made. If his vibe is giving nazi there is probably a reason.
Yeah he’s super obviously some degree of Nazi/eugenics guy…
There are people that could collect nazi memorabilia and say ,”oh dude…. I just like the aesthetic” thatd set off less alarms than this guy. What’s more is the fact that he’s almost certainly clocked the fact that you don’t really like his overt racist leanings and thinks you’ll either come around in time or you’re not going to definitively point them out and take action.
Is anything he’s saying wrong? Because he sounds like a smart dude who has a lot going for him.
TLDR I’m a nazi and this dude sounds fuckin awesome
I have a copy of Mein Kampf, but I also have a master’s degree in history and bought it to criticize it. It’s basically the ramblings of a mad man who thinks he’s the messiah. I only show people that I trust now because I drunkenly said I had a copy with a few people that I was loose friends with, and even though they knew I was a literal history student, and had heard me criticize Nazism and witnessed me vehemently denounce a Holocaust denier to their face, they still called me a Nazi.
He could be fascinated, like me, with how societies allow authoritarianism to flourish. Having artifacts from these periods of time can be interesting pieces of history to own. The thing that gives me pause is the family keeping the photo albums, and a Christmas card from Hitler. If that’s a personally signed card from Hitler, that means his grandfather was a rather dedicated Nazi, and may not have actually shed his ideology. There are still pockets of Nazi descendants in Argentina that are more than likely still Nazis behind closed doors.
This is a very delicate situation. I think the only way you’re going to know for sure is if you invade his privacy and see what his online activity is like (which I do not condone). I think you might have to leave him because there’s too many uncertainties here. His refusal to mention his ideology is also a red flag. I’ve been recommended a lot of Holocaust denial videos on YouTube for whatever fucking reason, and the comments read a lot like how your boyfriend has been very cryptic about his beliefs. Many Holocaust deniers and white supremacist s on public websites like YouTube will often be EXTREMELY cryptic about what they’re actually trying to say, and you kinda have to know to know; in the sense that you need to have an informed understanding of both the actual history, and the denialist beliefs to parse through the code. This isn’t worth the headache.
The genetics thing could be anything. Your genes do in-fact determine say how well you may transport oxygen in your blood, how much muscle you’ll develop in your life, some people are born with certain levels of spatial awareness than others, etc.
Thank you for this perspective, and I’m sorry you’ve had such trouble reconciling your study of history with your social standing amongst your peers.
He has no real online presence, and if he did— like you said— I wouldn’t want to pry. I want to believe he’s into history, but I feel like anyone who was truly into history would be much more delicate about telling me about his family’s past. The signed letter & photos were mentioned almost as a bonus, which felt so strange on the heels of hearing that my grandfather dedicated a good portion of his life to fighting the regime.
He’s clearly extremely intelligent, and my underlying worry is that he IS intentionally obfuscating his beliefs to ease into things. As far as he knows I have 0 background in history, but I’m more informed than most. He also mentioned he and his coworker have a lot of debates that people “walk in on”, which implied to me they were shocking, but hypothetical conversations about philosophy can sound insane to people passing by.
Is there any context in which a card from Hitler wouldn’t be the result of extreme familiarity? Were they mass-produced at any point? I know I’m splitting hairs here… oh, for fucks sake. No, right? They had to make the choice to keep the fucking thing and take it to America with them. Holy fuck. Burning the uniform doesn’t mean much if you keep the letter.
He was saying he beliefs in eugenics. Loud and clear he’s a white supremacist even if he’s not leaning hard into at the moment. Baby steps to the path of evil.