Is it fair that women got the vast vast vast majority of the stigma? absolutely not. however, having sex before the invention of birth control and std prevention was DANGEROUSSSS. you could get pregnant (which can kill you), get an std (which can kill / permanently disfigure you) and an orgasm doesnt realllyyy seem like its worht the risk. Again, not saying it was fair at ALL for the stigma to be mostly put on women but like. It really used to be that having sex outside of marriage was a pretty good recipe for disaster
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we know today that smoking could give you lung cancer and yet I don’t see stigma around smokers
edit – Ok my understand of stigma is different. Women were cast out/are still cast out in some parts of the world for sleeping with someone before a marraige. It was something that you would consider shameful to even admit. While smokers are treated a bit differently, I just meant that its not like shameful to admit that you’re a smoker or ask for a pack of ciggs. People are more embarrased to buy condoms probably. Also yes I don’t live in the USA so the perception is a tad different
Not to mention if you go back to before large scale economies, like around year 0. It really can fuck over a community of people are having kids when not prepared to care for them.
I agree with OP. Now let’s see those downvotes folks
Oh Reddit….
: )
Dying isnt immoral. Its not like every old person is considered immoral because they’re close(r) to death.
Your logic doesnt follow…
You forgot the most damning part
Hygiene wasn’t a concern for people way back when. The dick cheese and UTIs had to be crazy. I’m unfortunately imagining a sex scene I am fortunate to not have to smell.
I think the entire basis of this argument puts all of the responsibility for safe sex on women tho, you acknowledging that inequality doesn’t justify the existence of the stigma. Men conveniently escaped the same stigma, apparently.
Too bad that marriage couldn’t absolve you of these issues
It’s still a recipe for big problems.
What sucks is that even when women are completely safe when it comes to pregnancy and STDs they still get shamed
Someone even argued that promiscuity comes with a higher risk of pregnancy to me. And I disagreed by saying sex is way more frequent in long term relationships generally.
They just want to use pregnancy and STD risk as an excuse to shame promiscuity in women
K
You can really tell a difference between normal people with common sense and social skills, and typical redditors in this comment section lmfao
Risky is different from immoral, though.
Too bad none of those reasons you listed were the reasons it was stigmatized for women.
In contexts where sex outside of marriage is viewed as immoral, that tends to apply to both genders.
There might be contexts in which male sex drive is viewed as higher and in which women are considered the gatekeeper, but the act of sex outside marriage would be considered immoral for both participants.
Getting pregnant/giving birth while married could have killed you just as easily as unmarried, so I don’t really get that point
Well your chances of getting hiv used to be 0%. So let’s keep that mind. Sex wasn’t dangerous.
This doesn’t really make sense. Most communities that view sex as immoral also protest against contraceptives and birth control and view having a lot of kids as a good thing.
Especially before antibiotics.
Men were giving their wives syphilis!
As someone with a religious studies background you actually stumbled into kind of a big topic. If something was seen as socially detrimental or a health risk it would be written into religious doctrine of the time. Put years between the text and the reasoning and it becomes a foundational part of the religious texts. You can find a lot of these in early Jewish texts due to phases of governing via doctrine in ancient Israel/Judah. Pork is a big example of this. Pigs spread disease and considered unclean … add that to religious text wait a few hundred years and boom you have keeping kosher. A lot of kosher rules boil down to keeping a clean and healthy lifestyle in ancient times. Leviticus is full of rules like this.
One of my favorites is how folklore was used to keep kids in line. There’s old rabbinical writings about how demons only haunt ruins and run down structures (good way to keep your kids from exploring unsafe buildings).
The only thing i don’t agree with is it not being fair about the stigma. Stigmas are created for a reason. Look at your examples here… WHO carries all the risk? Women carry massive risk compared to men. It is therefore logical that parents/family/society should discourage in the strongest way possible a woman from risking so much just for an orgasm.
Today there is a completely different host of reasons that both men and women shouldn’t engage in sex outside of marriage, but western society believes it is immune to the consequences of its hubris in this matter.
you do realize sex is just as dangerous even if you are married? being married doesnt reduce the danger….
in fact, not having children was clearly seen as the worst outcome, because birth rates were far, far, higher in the past.
It’s not really just about pregnancy. Religious codes, and laws in general, are about preserving the peace and social order. People getting jealous and fighting over who is fucking who, causes all sorts of damage to that social order.
Back in old times marriages were mostly arranged by the families and women could be married as soon as they reached menarche, there was virtually no chance to have pre-marriage sex, at least for women.
The reason sex was seen as immoral was that in a way women have an exclusive advantage over men regarding reproduction; they always have 100% certainty that the child they give birth to is hers, that was all. Society always punished adulterous women way more harshly than adulterous men.
So the thing that was seen as immoral was to have a man raise a child that wasn’t his as if it was.
You were pretty close until that last sentence. Downvoting not because of your opinion, but because of your logic.
Sex wasn’t seen as immoral, sex outside of marriage was but that’s not for health and safety but to ensure against bastards claiming resources and property.