I’ve been seeing a lot of arguments online where men say that if women have the right to abortion, then men should have the right to a “financial abortion” and be able to walk away from any responsibility if the woman chooses to carry the pregnancy. Some of them even call child support punishment?
As a woman, when I read takes men have about this I feel my ovaries shrivelling up in disgust. There’s seems to be a massive gender divide on this issue. On one hand, many men argue that women shouldn’t have full bodily autonomy when it comes to pregnancy which is insane to me. On the other, those same men turn around and claim that the financial responsibility of supporting an already-born child is the same as a woman right to bodily autonomy.
To me, that mindset feels like it dehumanizes children. They’re treating kids like a burden or a bargaining chip instead of acknowledging that once a baby exists, it has its own human rights and deserves support from both parents.
So I’d love to hear women’s perspectives:
• How do you feel when men argue that they should be able to “opt out” of fatherhood?
• Do you also see this divide as part of why so many people are choosing not to have kids?
• Would you date a man who thought this way?
Comments
Men deadbeat they don’t need permission or ‘rights’
I think it’s pretty sad and inhumane to feel that way. I mean, I’d hate to be on the financial hook for a child I didn’t intend to bring into the world, but… it’s not always about me. Legally and morally, it’s about the best interests of the child. They didn’t ask to be born; you did the act (probably unprotected, but even if so) that brought them into the world. So, they’re your responsibility now.
A lot of men already dodge child support and for many women getting them to pay it worth less than the effort.
“financial abortion” and actual abortion aren’t comparable because with an abortion there is no child to affect and with “financial abortion” (a phrase i just heard for the first time today in this thread and cannot express how much i hate) there is a child out there potentially suffering because of parental negligence
>To me, that mindset feels like it dehumanizes children.
it absolutely does and it’s completely sick
If that’s how they feel then they should get a vasectomy. It’s not only on the woman to use birth control, and I’m sick of having the argument with men over and over that it is.
If you don’t want a baby, get a vasectomy, wrap it up, or keep your damn ween to yourself.
By opting out of their financial obligations for said child, they’re instead making that child everyone else’s financial responsibility. Tax payers are now taking care of that child when they should have. And something tells me they wouldn’t be too keen on that if they were the tax payer funding someone else’s financial abortion.
The concept is so dumb and non equivalent we shouldn’t even dignify it with a debate.
such an interesting companion post to the one from the woman who is childfree and keeps meeting men who want to change her mind. (ETA: which i think was this sub??)
anyway, a dude needs to get a vasectomy if he doesn’t want kids. if doesn’t want kids until later, he needs to take all precautions and be on the same page as whoever he is sleeping with. you don’t want kids, you do everything in your power to not create one. anyone having sex needs to consider all possible outcomes and be ok with them. and if you haven’t done this, maybe you aren’t ready for the sex.
Men can opt out of fatherhood, whenever they like. They have the option to have a vasectomy, they have the option to use condoms and they have the option to keep it inside their pants rather than sleep with women who wouldn’t get an abortion or would raise children in ways they disagree with. They have an abundance of options and control, just over their own bodies and not over the bodies of women. (ETA – and if they choose not to use permanent or short term protection then they are responsible for the consequences that they could have avoided, and the fact that some would whine about having to bear realistically the easiest burden and can still forego the heaviest does not reflect well)
Or they could just not get a woman pregnant, but that never seems to occur to them.
Hahahahahahaha as if men don’t already walk away and fuck the women over
ahhhhh i’m childfree by choice so i don’t really have a stake in this issue… but i feel like men need to finally understand by now that it’s the woman who gets pregnant and therefore the woman who decides what happens with the pregnancy in her body (in my humble opinion). like at this point the men have to understand that unprotected sex, or sex in general, leads to pregnancy. why are they still acting surprised and dumbfounded by this?? and not to mention, men already “opt out” of fatherhood as it is. both men and women can be deadbeats, that’s a choice available to anyone who creates a human life. like sorry men, if you still can’t fathom why a woman should have control over her body when she becomes pregnant, then you’re too dumb to have sex!! again- MY OPINION. i can usually see both sides of arguments but i feel like the issue of abortion is so far apart from the issue of financially supporting a kid that ACTUALLY EXISTS and i don’t get why they’re even being compared.
There’s no such thing as a financial abortion. What these men are demanding has literally nothing to do with abortion:
abortion is based on bodily autonomy. This proposition has nothing to do with bodily autonomy; it’s about financial responsibility.
abortion results in no child being born. With this proposition, a child is still born and someone – the biological mother, the biological father, you, me, society as a whole – needs to cover their financial needs or the child goes without.
I don’t support this proposition but if it became law, I believe that both men and women (and people of any or all or no gender) should be equally entitled to waive the financial responsibility of parenthood. No reason to limit it to men. Again, it’s not the equivalent to abortion, so don’t bullshit me with women have abortion, men have this. If men can opt out of parenthood by simply signing a piece of paper, women should also have that right.
But I’ll be honest, I’m not keen on picking up the slack of all those deadbeat dads who could provide but don’t want to. I’ve never heard a man pairing that proposition with a demand for higher taxes to make up for it by the way. Just like I’ve never seen a man propose “financial opt-out” as an equal right for both men and women. Generally-speaking, I’m never seeing this proposition paired with stuff like “in this case, the mom/remaining parent should be entitled to the parental leave of the dad/parent that opted-out” and other measures about how to support the solo parent and/or the child. On the contrary, the tone and attitude towards the woman who decides to carry the pregnancy to term have systematically been hostile and punitive.
I think people who push for this do not understand and/or care about women’s bodily autonomy and that’s a deal breaker. So no, wouldn’t date. Also incoming generalization but men who talk about “financial abortion” tend to be the same who talk about “divorce rape”.
Men should have a right to a paternity test. Financial abortion is not a right. Financial responsibility for a child is a consequence.
100% of unplanned pregnancies are caused by men ejaculating irresponsibly. There is no equal responsibility in pregnancy. There is no equal responsibility in childbirth. The consequences of parenthood have a significantly bigger impact on women’s earning potential than it does on men’s.
We’re comparing apples to oranges. “What about MY right to abortion?” is reductive to the point of nonsense.
Men are just mad that their choice comes at the peak of their pleasure and where they deposit their cum. It’s not fair, they cry. Where’s my choice? No, not that one. I want more choices that don’t involve my orgasm!
I just tell them that they regularly do opt out of parenthood, either through abandonment, or being half-assed involved.
If they really want to “opt out” then they should get a vasectomy.
Guess they should just keep it in their pants then? Both parties can prevent birth, and if he doesn’t want to risk getting someone pregnant, then don’t have sex – that’s what you tell women after all…..(not that there aren’t other means of preventing that from happening, but that is 100% prevention)
At the end of the day, a lot of men are just looking for someone to boss around and/or make sure you don’t have more to eat on their plate than they do.
They have an option: don’t have sex and you won’t get someone else pregnant . Women can be raped, so they need access to additional resources.
Biology doesnt work in their favor here, tough shit. You ejaculate into a woman, its not a cup. We arent plastic dolls. If that’s what you want fuck a barbie There is a chance of a pregnancy regardless of birth control. If there is a baby you are financially responsible- women know to ask for emotional responsibility would be a stretch for a lot of you.
I think they’re pathetic pieces of shit who need to be forced into empathy classes.
My father paid as little support as he could, never cared that we regularly went hungry and barely had clothes to wear. He was, unsurprisingly, physically and mentally abusive. So would I date a man who has so little empathy he’d let his children starve? Fuck no, one evil piece of shit was enough.
(US perspective)
As a child, I agreed with this because of my strict pro-abortion stance.
As an adult, I think it’s appalling because of my strict pro-abortion stance. It’s increasingly hard to raise children in this country, it’s just too damn expensive. The mistake/accident is shared and so is the money. The man gets ZERO input, and their financials count as input.
The only way my perception on this would change is if we actually had a social safety net that actually supported women and children (and people). I’m talking 18+ months full pay leave, free universal daycare, preschool, after school programs, increased and more access to WIC, weekend care, hot food on EBT, universal healthcare, ya know all the things people need to survive. So yeah get those men on that train, and I’ll get on their no child support train.
Biology isn’t fair so we are never going to have a perfect system for abortions and child support where both partners have equal say. Are there people who abuse the system? Yes. Are there people who get screwed over? Yes. Is it probably the best we can do? More or less.
Men who want to have financial abortions should think more about whether they’re prepared to be a father before having sex. That’s when their decision can take place.
My thoughts on men who believe that would violate the content policy about violence. I have no more patience for nuance in this misogynistic world.
We already know what it looks like when men abandon the children they fathered. The mother and sometimes people in her community try their best to provide, but all too often the child suffers. It takes money to house, feed, and clothe a person.
If those men actually wanted to end child support, they could promote stronger social safety nets, including government programs to subsidize the costs of childcare. But they don’t see single mothers or unplanned babies as people.
And I don’t want to hear any boo hoo about how biology is unfair to them. It’s unfair to women also, in that the health cost of pregnancy is entirely on them. We can’t change that. Shit, if the embryo could be transplanted to the sperm provider, I doubt we’d even be having this conversation.
Eww, any man with that mentality is trash, and I would want nothing to do with them whatsoever.
If you’re having sex with someone you don’t want kids with and they get pregnant, you’re literally at fault, so yeah, take responsibility. Don’t have sex with someone if you can’t handle the consequences. Period. This is one of the reasons I dislike casual sex and men who engage in it. They suck.
Oh look, is that Timmy down the well? No? What else could it be? Oh that’s right! It’s our collective birth rate! Plummeting down through the ground!
I think if men don’t want to potentially be financially responsible for babies, they should refrain from having sex…. just like they tell women to “close their legs,” men should keep it in their pants.
Sex makes babies. And even if you take all the precautions under the sun, sometimes nature just “finds a way.”
All actions have repercussions, and that includes sex.
I’m not some religious nut saying “wait until marriage” or whatever… I’m just saying, if you’re going to have sex, sometimes that leads to babies even if you thought you took all the right precautions, so both parties should be prepared for that.
Men abandon their children all the time. Very rarely do they face any consequences for it. What these guys want is to be able to abandon their child without any judgment, from anyone. And you can tell that’s what they really want, because they get very upset when you suggest “financial abortion” be retitled “financial abandonment”, even if you say you agree it should be a thing. They want to be coddled and shielded from people judging them.
It’s gross and I wouldn’t date one of them. I prefer men with the backbone and the guts to accept the judgment their actions get them.
Men have birth control options. “Accidents” happen to both women and men because of birth control failure. Women are expected to live and deal with the consequences of that in the worst case scenario of not having a choice about what to do, so men should, too. If they aren’t OK with that worst-case-scenario risk ratio when they’re deciding whether or not to have the kind of sex that could result in their child being born, they should choose a different option (acts that can result in pregnancy aren’t the only option to orgasm). So “no”—no man should have the option to not pay child support if it is requested by the mother of their child, regardless of whether he wants the child and to be in that child’s life or not.
And no, I’d never date a man who thinks that “financial abortion” should be an option for men, even though there’s 0.0% chance I could ever get pregnant again. Because that tells me everything I need to know about the type of person they are. (Ed: incorrect autocorrect word).
Men can freeze their sperm and get a vasectomy.
I think they are willfully being manipulative with the phrasing.
Child support isn’t a punishment, and it’s not a gift to the child’s caregiver. It is done for the best interest of a child. Phrasing it as an abortion is manipulative trolling.
I don’t… understand some of these comments, I guess? I think I’m going to go against the grain here and probably get downvoted to oblivion, lol, but I’m having a difficult time seeing the problem with the basic concept. It could definitely be twisted or abused, but….
Look, I’m all about the idea that if two people have a child at some point and they both consented to bring that child into the world, then both parties are financially responsible no matter what happens. I don’t actually disagree entirely with a man’s or penis-haver’s right to opt out. I don’t think it has much to do with people having kids or not.
If the uterus person can choose to keep or abort a fetus and then subsequently be financially responsible for the actual child’s well-being if they keep it – so choose to be a parent – why shouldn’t the other party have that same choice?
Why do so many comments focus on the fact of “you had sex, so pay the consequences”? JFC, is a child a punishment, or a person? It screams of the desire to punish people for having sex altogether. Biological male or female. The whole “he needs to wrap it up or get a vasectomy” thing doesn’t seem any different from “well she needs to be on birth control or keep her legs closed,” without much consideration for the fact that these measures do fail, even when used in combination with each other. Not to mention the fact that there is nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with two (or more) consenting adults having sex regardless of their relationship status.
The anti-abortion camp seems to have some kind of issue with women having sex outside of marriage or whatever, and being forced to carry, birth, and raise a child is seen as “consequences” to them. Are they hypocritical? Yep. But the concept itself, of either party not having to be forced to be a parent or financially responsible if they don’t want to, is fine.
I mean, sure, there are definitely situations in which some men can use this to be shitty, but those men already do.
I as a woman and single mom support this, but with the caveat that he has to sign his rights away within that states current abortion window. So it cant happen if the woman resides in states with abortion bans etc.
And once he signs his rights away he can never get them back.
So I’m a guy and honestly this is upsetting to me. I am not trying to win points but like come on, this is a life that you brought into this world and I’m sorry but you are responsible for it.
Looking at MenOver30 I can just imagine if this question was asked. I would have the “not my fault” bingo card filled in within minutes. There are a good majority of posters that are so dead set thinking that women are just roaming around trying to get pregnant so that they don’t have to work and just collect unemployment. And that the system is rigged against them (even though how since most of it is due to patriarchy) where I kid you not one person argued that women shape the policy because even though on federal level most lawmakers are men in local level it’s….women?
But yea please leave that guy. This is such a disgusting and disturbing way and I try to call this shit out. Like my man, you are not that much of a prize for a woman to go through the possible horrors of pregnancy, then having to take care of the kid just to get a payment that probably barely covers the bills. Also you only have to pay that till they are 18 and those payments are the price of being free to just leave and not needing to go through pregnancy.
I think they needed to have opted out of sex before they opt out of fatherhood.
And maybe not opt out of using 2 forms of contraception every time.
Or just exclusively have sex with post menopausal women and put an end to this bs
I would hope these men are then lobbying for:
– universal healthcare that is of a very high quality, vision & dental included, all medications/procedures/etc. paid
– free daycare
– free formula, diapers, etc. for all
– free rent & food for everyone making under $1M/year
– free college education
– 18 months paid maternity leave in all jobs
BUUUUT, I bet they are not!
Their argument is a false equivalency—the reason that people are allowed to choose abortion is because even in death we don’t make people donate their organs. We don’t make people donate blood. If you woke up & someone had attached themselves to your body to use your kidneys for dialysis, no one would blame you for disconnecting them, even if it meant they would die. So why should we make people incubate embryos into fetuses into children?
If they don’t want to pay child support, they should be very careful about preventing pregnancy & get to know the women they sleep with very well, knowing that she would choose abortion if she got pregnant. BUUUUT, they aren’t doing that, either! Honestly I feel like most men don’t really believe that sex causes pregnancy. It’s like they think there’s just a correlation.
Why don’t these men get vasectomies???????
These MRA guys are interested in any thing that hurts women and doesn’t help children, not even their boys.
It’s crazy how some men act like child support is punishment. The kid didn’t ask to be here. Once they are born both parents should step up and take care of them. Walking away is not a right it’s just abandoning your child.
That’s why sex education is important. There is a multitude of sex acts a man and a woman can do beside penis-in-vagina sex thus have 0% in resulting in pregnancy.
I may not be the most glorified by society, but you should only practice penis-in-vagina as a man if you are okay with getting a kid with this person 10 months later.
As a woman with a child, kids are a burden, financially, physically and emotionally. That’s why having kids should be a 2 yes 1 no type of decision in general. Women should absolutely never need permission from a man to have an abortion. My body my choice. But I also think someone should be able to sign away their parental rights
They already do this all the time.
I wouldn’t willingly be in the presence of a man like that let alone commit to one 🤢
Just to clarify, it dehumanizes women. Men have opted out of fatherhood for centuries. Fatherhood isn’t just financial, it’s presence, care, love, teaching. I don’t think it’s shocking that the same men who think women shouldn’t have autonomy are the same men who think they shouldn’t have to take any responsibility. Fun fact: I used to work in child support and I’ve seen men do pretty shady shit to get out of paying child support.
They already have it. They can simply sign away parental rights, or not sign the birth certificate to begin with.
A child doesn’t ask to be born. Legally a child is seen as innocent and free of the burden of their conception. A child needs money. If the parents don’t pay for the child, they will become a liability of the state and they do not want that. For that reason they don’t care how the child came to be even in cases where the men has been sexually assaulted or their sperm stolen from them. Even less of course in a case where they willingly participated in the ritual that created this child. Parentage determines financial obligation here.
Im actually fine with the financial abortion argument provided there are pro choice options available to the mother and the couple doesnt have a long term commitment to each other (like this was a one night stand/fuckbuddies)
This is one of those things where the way nature works, one side is always going to end up “losing”.
Like if a man wants to keep the child but the woman wants to abort, forcing a woman to give birth in that case borders on evil for me. But I feel sympathy for the man in that situation who has to essentially stand by.
On the other hand if a woman wants to keep the child but the man doesnt, the two of them hadn’t established that they were in it for the long term, and there were many options to safely abort and other preventative measures were taken by the guy, I do think someone deciding they want to raise a child but without someone’s input but with their financial backing… borders on irresponsible and selfish.
I see a lot of people here skipping over the situation of when a man did use preventative measures (like condoms) but it happen to fail. That actually does happen. Some people may want children later in life but arent ready yet, so a vasectomy is off the table. Such as for ninteen year olds.
You can say that that is the price of having sex, but we’d never make this argument when a woman becomes pregnant and it is unwanted.
I had a child with my ex husband. He wanted the kid, just as much as I did. Fast forward a couple of years, I leave and he is no where to be found for MONTHS. Comes around to “see” the kid, just to ask for us to sleep together. We didn’t sleep together, so his presence was minimized again. Fast forward a few more years, I get a hold of him and offer to remove child support if he signs his rights over. He was barely paying at the time anyways. He agrees. In my state, rights being given up doesn’t get rid of child support, so he changed his mind. Fast forward again several years, he misses weekends often and only calls maybe once a week for like 3 minutes or so. Kid is almost a teenager now. Even with rights being gone, child support can still be a thing.
If my ex had just walked away and signed his rights away, I would not have asked for help. I barely receive any help anyways. Let them go. I chose to carry my children to term and give them the best possible life I can. The dad wants to split, freaking go on and go away. Don’t come back.
Tell them it’s time for the real solution. Every boy deposits sperm in a cryobank at puberty and is immediately vasectomized. When he wants to become a father, and finds a woman who agrees to bear his child, they can go together to the clinic, sign legal papers ensuring mutual responsibility, and he can hold the woman’s hand when she is inseminated with his sperm. Then there is zero chance of accidental pregnancy. Win for everyone.
We require parents to pay child support as it is in the best interest of the child, which is in the best interest of society.
Putting that aside, we do have a mechanism for men to legally separate themselves and their families from any responsibility to a child they were a part of producing. They can voluntarily terminate their parental rights.
I think we should have a clear way for men to do this during the same time frame an abortion can be had. Women should not be forced to carry a pregnancy to term and men should not be forced to have a child that they would have aborted. Their process should follow similar processes to the hoops women have to jump through to get abortions in places where there are hoops to jump through.
The situation changes once a child is born. It’s not easy for men or women to terminate their parental rights voluntarily. It shouldn’t be easy.
I don’t think any of this is why people choose not to have kids.
I dont know how it is in every state but cant a man essentially give up his rights to the child and there for abolish him from child support? I dont know how any of that works.. that just what I thought would happen in this case of a man not wanting any part of a childs life. But obviously there’s men out there that are paying CS and never even see their kid so what are those circumstances where a man is forced to pay even tho they aren’t apart of the kids life. All Good questions.
If we wanted to call it fair game then a man should have the same amount of time a woman does to have an abortion to opt out of being a father and having rights and therefore abolishing his duty to pay child support if she agrees to keep it. No changing your mind once the kid is born and now you want to play house. And no trying to get out of child support if you were there for the first 5 years and now you guys broke up and you dont want to pay lol.
If women can make a life affirming decision in a short amount of time to commit or not then so can men.
It doesn’t change that this is HIS child. The child needs to eat. Who does he think should support his offspring, if not him?
This is men wanting yet another way to worm out of responsibility. Meanwhile these same men aren’t marching to keep abortion legal & accessible.
If we get to live in a society with enough of a safety net that men can financially opt out and women do not then struggle financially to provide for the child, then I say let them have that. I would prefer to live in a society that didn’t hitch me or a future child financially to a man who decides he doesn’t want to be a father.
Healthcare including all maternity and delivery and postnatal visits, loss of work, childcare, housing expenses for an additional person, school, etc etc. Cover it some other way and absolutely an individual man can opt out. Not willing to go there? Then you have to be financially on the hook.
It is not that hard to get a vasectomy or masturbate.
They act like women don’t pay WAY MORE during the course of a child’s life. Even zero-custody child support is a pittance.
They had the option to get a vasectomy and use condoms in order to opt out of fatherhood, but elected not to. Or better yet, they could have put as aspirin between their legs. I hear that is a great preventer of becoming a parent. 🤷♀️
If they get “financial abortion” then they have to get a vasectomy first before applying for it.
Look, I understand from an emotional standpoint where these men are coming from. As a childfree woman I can’t imagine being saddled with a child I wasn’t on board with being kept. It’s a long and (from their perspective) unfair commitment when the decision is ultimately up to the woman.
However, there’s a lack of accountability here. Men are equally responsible for making sure contraceptives are used. The “she lied and said she was on birth control” excuse is old and tired, and even if it’s true you still are not exempt from taking your own precautions. Use a condom. Get on male birth control. Get a vasectomy.
I acknowledge birth control tampering happens on both sides, in which case it’s especially tragic. Even so, the men you describe fail to make a 1:1 argument that’s actually valid.
Abortions help safeguard the bodily autonomy of the woman. Having to pay child support does not violate the man’s bodily autonomy. If a child is born then there is now a human being that both the man and woman contributed to creating, whether intentionally or not, and the bottom line is that they are responsible for its welfare.
So to actually sum up your bullet points:
Even if men want a “financial abortion”, the KID deserves financial support.
Its a fundamental misunderstanding of abortion and bodily autonomy.
Sure! I’m all for it for if 1) they get sterilized by the state for being a feckless ne’er do well that shifts parenting responsibilities to the non-parents in society and 2) the state has to foot half the bill for the raising of said child.
Isn’t this already a thing? Isn’t there well over a billion dollars of unpaid child support? They just want freedom from consequences.
yawn
Men have always been able to “opt out” of fatherhood. Cash alone does not a father make. There are constant jokes hanging around about “dad went out for milk and didn’t come back” or whatever. Girls get blamed for “fatherless behavior” but there are no parallel jokes about moms or boys. (Also, if a man thinks he’s ONLY a paycheck to a potential family, then he needs to re-evaluate his life and views. What a shitty way to think of oneself.)
I think there are lots of reasons people are choosing not to have kids, expense and the world literally burning being the top two I hear. But I have heard a lot of women opt out of kids because their partner (or ex partner) had zero interest in being an equal partner—he was happy to let her carry the entire emotional load and do all the domestic labor. But honestly, that’s usually the third reason. Cost and climate are the top two.
And no. I wouldn’t date a misogynist.
Child support/financial obligation is not gendered. If a woman had a kid and her partner had primary custody, then the woman would also have to pay child support
Child support is separate from reproductive rights, as it deals with a child that already exists.
This is just a stupid argument men use because they’re deadbeat dads and don’t want to take care of their children.
Accidents happen even if both parties use protection. Tubes grow back (rare), vasectomies fail, condoms bust, antibiotics interfere with birth control pills, etc. And BOTH parties can lie about their birth control. I think there are those extreme cases that could make this idea compelling but definitely a VERY rare case by case thing, where every precaution was taken and agreements were made. But I absolutely do not think this should be an easy thing to access, like you can just opt out.
But the bottom line. Did you nut in her? Then you did your part there. You did your share to create life whether you understood the ramifications or not. So why would you get to avoid the resulting responsibility? It would take a lot IMO for a guy to win a case to get out of financial responsibility.
The really gross part about this is that that dude tied this into abortion rights. I don’t even have the energy to articulate how a woman having the right to her own body has nothing to do with a man’s finances.
I think it’s an incredibly stupid idea that superficially feels smart. The issue with the financial abortion issue is:
–Abortion rights are not technically sex based. If two lesbian women decide to have a baby, only the one carrying the fetus can choose to get an abortion. Same goes for surrogacy situations in the US even the fetus or embryo is not genetically related to the person incubating. The rule is if you’re the pregnant one, you decide. It of course broadly impacts men and women in heterosexual relationships, but the letter of the law can also be applied to women who take part in impregnating another woman.
–It only works if rape and abuse are completely knowable things where you can always legally know definitively if someone was raped which is frankly childish.
–Abortion just speaks to a broad imbalance between men and women. If you are the person impregnating someone, you can just leave. The burden exists on the woman or anyone who can get pregnant. Broad abortion rights and child support laws serve to lesson this imbalance.
It’s a really fucking stupid idea.
“You can’t unring the bell”
The male choice part happens pretty early in the equation. “wrap it before you slap it”
It’s not the kid’s fault their parent doesn’t care… they still have legitimate human needs which take resources.
I hate the term, but going against the grain here to say maybe.
Maybe if the father is given the exact same amount of time that a woman is allowed to get an abortion to decide if they want to be a father. If they pass that timeframe, too bad, you’re a dad.
If they decide not to be a father, there would need to be a complete signing away of rights over anything to do with that child’s life. A firm and final, no taksey backsey, no turning up in 12 years when it’s convenient for you suddenly wanting to be a father, if you’re out you’re all the way out. Forever.
And then, still a maybe because it needs to be about what’s best for the child. Just the work and hell of trying to make people pay child support who never have any intention of doing so is so much stress that the juice sometimes isn’t worth the squeeze. Having been the child in the situation I do not have fond memories of the child support debate.
In an ideal world everyone would be on the same page about kids, and what the plan is if there is an accidental pregnancy etc. But it’s just not an ideal world, birth control fails, things don’t go to plan, people change their minds, etc. It’s just never going to go well when one party very much wants a child and the other party very much does not.
Ummmmm they do that already. Do they not know that? Anyone who has a deadbeat father or ex who skipped on child support raise your hand. Also typical for these dumbasses to think that paying a few hundred bucks a month still counts as some kind of fatherhood.
Also the kind of “men” saying this are also the ones who will complain about having to wrap their micropenis in a condom because they “can’t feel anything.”
If you put your unwrapped dick in a vagina and ejaculate then you are saying “I am okay with getting this woman pregnant and all the consequences that come with it.” Vice versa with the woman. It’s actually kind of unreal how many literal adults don’t understand this concept.
And yes, accidents happen. I’ve seen that picture of the newborn baby holding an IUD. But in that case being a sensible adult means you figure your shit out. We all know that the only way to 100% guarantee you don’t get pregnant is to not have sex. So if they’re that concerned just don’t have sex (not that they’re having it anyway).
IMO “financial abortion” is a stupid premise from the get-go, because it completely misinterperts women’s reasons for seeking abortions in the first place. Abortions primarily exist so that women no longer have to be pregnant, and who do not have to endure childbirth. Women who are happy continuing a pregnancy but don’t want to be responsible for the child usually choose adoption instead, which is rarer than a women choosing an abortion because going through an entire pregnancy and childbirth just to give up the child is A LOT of unnescessary pain and suffering.
Child support is about SUPPORTING THE CHILD. The days of men being able to get random women pregnant and walk away while she struggles to keep herself and her child fed and housed are over. If that’s an unacceptable outcome to them, they need to get a vasectomy, wrap their willy, or abstain from sex.
then they should stick to using their hands
I read your post and I’ll answer with some recent anecdotal data I’ve seen in person and randomly online: men do not give a fuck about these red pill ass talking points and gotchas OR they are starting to wake up to the fact they got duped, bad.
I do a mostly male hobby, blah blah blah. Anyway we got a group of under 26 year old guys in a few months ago, they’ve been running up against their shit takes and humor not being tolerated in this space. It’s gotten to the point of introspection. The other month there was a loud convo about how none of this shit is real and if they (the under 26s) would actually show respect and “pick up some damn character” (exact words lol) they’d be much happier. The under conceded and something interesting happened…the unders started to vocally talk about their frustrations and confusion with the red pill talking points. This oddly enough lead to convos about algorithm shifts. Long story short, I don’t click on these stupid ass gender war talking points but I’ve been getting a shit ton of content about men talking about how sad and pathetic these manosphere men are and how they’re working to undo the damage of absorbing the content.
All that to say, if men are saying this then they’re a vocal minority and don’t matter. I don’t necessarily think this is even true or substantial. I think the answer for this perspective is always the logical one: control where the fuck you nut and be more discerning about who you fuck. That’s it, no other convo needs to happen.
If you don’t want to have to pay for the kid you helped make, maybe stop having unprotected sex.
>I’ve been seeing a lot of arguments online where men say that if women have the right to abortion, then men should have the right to a “financial abortion” and be able to walk away from any responsibility if the woman chooses to carry the pregnancy. Some of them even call child support punishment?
This is not a new line of reasoning. Men have always thought this. They’ve just newly coined the term “financial abortion” to describe it instead of the more traditional and accurate “being a deadbeat.”
The courts have always rejected it because it hurts kids.
It would be a lot simpler for them to get oriectomies.
Men already can and do opt out of fatherhood all the time, the burden will always fall harder to women since we provide the actual physical labor and delivery. Birth control is a helpful tool for those that don’t want to deal with this reality.
Biologically, men can invest 2 minutes of effort into a person being born, and the mother would still be required to provide 9 months + 18 years of care.
I think men who aren’t willing to do their part in taking care of a child who wouldn’t exist without them should get a vasectomy, end of list.
Women can’t control whether a man becomes a deadbeat dad (which despite the bitching and moaning to the contrary, men successfully do all the time even when they’re supposed to be paying child support). Men can’t control whether a woman keeps her pregnancy. There’s shit we all can’t control in these scenarios. But people should not be able to just abandon their kids (literally or financially) and have that be considered acceptable.
Men don’t think that, bigots do.
Real men own their responsibilities and look for a partner not a gestating possession.
Before the baby is born, the mother gets priority because it’s her body. A guy wouldn’t let a random person rip his dick off. Once the baby is out of the mother’s body, they are equally responsible. Forever. And it isn’t fair because men can’t carry children. But if they could, I will feel the exact same way. You do not get to control someone else’s body. But you are responsible for any offspring. Don’t want it? Snip that shit or use birth control that’s what we women have to do. Maybe if they had to carry it they’d understand the responsibility more. The kid didn’t choose to be born so punishing it with a financial divorce is just cruel.
Ya they can do that already by signing way their rights as a parent.
It’ll never legally happen but I’m glad they tell on themselves so no one makes the mistake of sleeping with them
They want to get rid of the consequences of being a deadbeat dad.
That’s it. That’s the whole argument. They try to obfuscate it in an argument about how “it’s unfair that women are able to get abortions” as if the fact men can’t get pregnant is unfair to men.
Pregnancy is preventable by both parties. How about men be just as concerned about preventing a whole ass human being brought into the world rather than abandon their responsibility once it’s here.
I think that when you put your penis in another person and leave your sperm behind, what happens to that sperm is at the complete discretion of the person whose body it is now in. If it becomes a baby or an abortion isn’t your choice, because it is no longer inside your body. And if it becomes a baby, that baby is ABSOLUTELY your financial responsibility because you left the ingredients in the kitchen bucko. If you don’t want babies, don’t leave 50% of the genetic material required to make one inside someone else’s body? A man’s “right to choose” is literally the right to nut up or shut up, and boy oh boy do I wish they would choose shut up. 100% of pregnancies are caused by men leaving their sperm inside other people… maybe stop doing that, IDK.
I do think parents should be able to voluntarily terminate their parental rights prior to the child being born. It would have to be irreversible though. You choose to never, ever be a part of that child’s life. It would spare a lot of children being abandoned after bonding with a parent and/or growing up in a home full of hatred because the parents are there only out of obligation.
I don’t think this is a divide causing people to choose not to have kids. I think that’s more to do with the state of the world in like…every single aspect imaginable.
I would not date a man who used the term financial abortion and framed this argument as “women baby trap men” or whatever it sounds like the source of this came from. Thats a toxic mindset and shows a very narrow view of society.
I think it’s a complex issue with a heck of a lot of variables.
Generally speaking I think that when an unwanted pregnancy is either noones fault (failure of BC or carelessness by both parties) I’m very sympathetic when one party has universal control over a decision that will financially impact the other for at least 18 years, not to mention the psychological impact on a child of having a father who wants nothing to do with them. I also don’t want to be forcing women to either carry or abort a pregnancy if they don’t want to.
But in many other circumstances the man absolutely should be financially on the hook for his decisions.
But I think there’s too many variables to institute any kind of rules around when a man can say “if you go ahead with this knowing I don’t want to, you’re one your own”.
And it can never be a fair option in places where abortion is illegal.
I think they’re worthless, selfish and irresponsible. I hope no woman ever gives them the time of day.
Edit: I hope they are never able to have a child.
I think men would sing a different tune if they were the ones who usually got primary custody and the woman was on child support.
There are plenty of videos of men who begged the woman to carry to term crying because she signed over the rights and wants nothing to do with the child (other than pay child support). Yet they want to say that they’re being treated wrong because “how could she abandon us” when she’s following the agreement.
I think the men who say this have no clue what it is like and would try to rake the woman over the coals if it was reversed.
I genuinely do think that this should be an option, but
1: it should have a time limit similar to the one women have to decide
2: you should have to go to a courthouse to present your case (absolutely no doing it from the comfort of your own home, go walk in there and show your face for the sixth time this year and have people try to talk you out of it)
3: it should terminate all parental rights so you can’t come back when they’re 8 and try to get visitation
I know so many kids and mothers whose lives would have been easier if the man they procreated with didn’t decide to be a jackass just to avoid child support or try to get back at the mother for it. Thankfully most were eventually able to get sole custody but issues inevitably popped back up as the kids got older and were “more fun” to hang out with
And adding: If we are implementing this system I also want better resources for single mothers! Better WIC/Food stamp options and child care resources. Essentially handing the bill back to the community instead of one man who isn’t going to pay anyway
If men don’t want to pay child support they should be pro abortion rights and should be supporting male birth control research, not to mention feminism in general so women can feel empowered to raise children on their own without a second income.
But no I wouldn’t touch a man with those opinions with a ten foot pole. Not only do their politics suck but their personalities are also dreadful.
I think the only men that even have a leg to stand on for the straw-man argument about opting out are those trying to dismantle the patriarchy and even then it’s like yeah ok in principle sure but the system still exists so pony up my fellow sex haver.
Realistically they wouldn’t want even MORE of their money going to other people’s kids that they can’t afford.
In the US 40% of all births are on Medicaid. Someone has to pay for it, might as well be the one who dropped the load.
I actually really support this – provided it happens during the pregnancy, they become legally a stranger to the child and mother, and there are absolutely no “takebacks.”
The time limit would force men to be more transparent about whether or not they’re going to abandon the woman to be a single mother, and also allow her to raise her child without a deadbeat suddenly changing their mind and interfering after years of nothing.
I genuinely think this would improve society.
I have never heard of this and I think you might be letting horrible people on the internet make you think this is a common topic of discourse. It is not. I mean, men have been opting out of fatherhood for time immemorial, but this particular term and argument…no.
These men should have vasectomies if they don’t want kids.
anybody who argues that this is fair or moral isn’t really saying it in good faith. if part of their argument is that abortion kills an innocent child, then being able to walk away (they really already can anyway) to let that innocent child struggle more in life, with no consequences to themselves, just causes more harm. I don’t take these people seriously as wanting fairness for anyone
I’m not going to comment on the use of financial “abortion.”
If a man doesn’t want children, he can either get a vasectomy or just not fuck. But neither of those are an option for some reason.
Guys who talk like that are assholes. A verbal red flag.
Just one more excuse not to take responsibility.
Their control is over their penis, ie condom or vasectomy.
If they carelessly left their genetic material behind, then it’s on them. If they had a vasectomy and the pregnant woman broke into the storage lab to impregnate herself, then I think he has a case.
I think those men will pop up when the child turns 18 trying to act like his absence was the woman’s fault.
It’s just bitter, misogynistic whataboutism.
Unless you are basically doing a prenup before every time you have intercourse, it’s such hard grounds to establish legally.
I think the difference with “punishment” is that can often happen without you being guilty. What is going on is more just unwanted consequences of actions you didn’t think would occur. consequences can be both good or bad. It’s just a result from choices you made. By having sex, even with protection on both ends, you are non-verbally agreeing to the potential risk that come with sex including but not limited to: stds, stis, pregnancy etc. it’s part of the territory with sex
Where I can see a legal argument is sex with a minor like a teacher taking advantage of a high school freshman. I know not every state teaches sex ed or many just abstinence or the like. It’s a major reason why I think sex should be required at a gradual level even at a very early age is because it helps with manipulation and rape and other cases of assault when minors know “oh so and so should NOT be touching me like this? Ok wow now I know and who to talk to also.”’ I’d have to research though if any male rape victim has had to pay child support….
I can a tiny bit legally see more of the argument for not wanting an abortion from a woman you had sex with IF it was established you wanted a child or would take care of it AND are willing to give financial compensation for the duration of an unwanted pregnancy by the mother AND full custody afterwards. The only reason I see this argument being tried is that is technically is both dna involved.
HOWEVER Again since the man isn’t going through the pregnancy, some major financial compensation would have to be required and it’s just ridiculous convoluted with so much more risk and uncertainty for the woman. Just getting away from physical aspects, disconnecting with a child that you birthed is a very difficult thing and hormones are crazy. It all is complicated once you get into the human aspects. Family law is crazy for a different reason than other forms of law and it’s the drama.
May I never work in that field. However I do think people should understand how fucking complicated all that gets. Most men complaining about this stuff don’t know the detailing of custody or just don’t want to pay. Fuck absentee fathers
Financial abort should be obtained by using condoms
If you don’t want to have children, ever, then they should get a vasectomy. If they want children at some point, then they should be careful who they sleep with.
If we did allow men to opt out of fatherhood, the same should be allowed for women and that will never happen. So obviously I’m against it.
Even if the concept makes sense (not being responsible for a kid you sodnt want) calling it some terminally online headass phrase would turn me off, like ‘yes tell me your other opinions you didnt have until a male taller than you was pissed off about it’
They’re free to get a vasectomy, stay celibate, support women’s abortion rights, and they can even legally give up parenting the baby. There are so many options for them to not have and/or pay for kids they make.
I don’t appreciate them using the term abortion for this.
It’s idiotic. Child support is for the child, not the parent.
People need to stop pretending like we can have a fair exchange for men and women when it comes to pregnancy. Stop thinking that men should “get something” to help them out of their responsibilities since women “get something” to stop being pregnant. It’s not an equal process. One side has to bear FAR greater consequences. So one side has a bigger say. That’s all there is to it.
Men say this shit and wonder why they aren’t getting laid. 👀