This isn’t about race, skin colour, gender or religion. Purely language.
I cannot fathom why anyone would think it is a good idea to move to a country where they don’t speak much of the language.
We have a wide variety of people at the hospital I work at but there has been an influx of people that don’t speak much English. Not only do they struggle with paitents but they struggle with their colleagues as well. You cannot integrate with the community if you can’t communicate effectively.
When I travel to countries where they have different first languages, I always try learn at least how to say the pleasantries.
EDIT: This does not include refugees for obvious reasons.
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I’ve lived in multiple countries and learned while I was there, got by just fine. I actually bring money into the economy that otherwise would not be there. Win win
The thing is, the best way to learn a language is to live in a country that speaks that language. The best way to learn is always immersion.
To be “near fluent” on a foreign language without ever living in a country that speaks that language natively is a very high bar.
Kind of hard to get near fluent without living there.
Given that the entire reason Northern America speaks English is because people moved to a country without knowing the language, I both agree and disagree with your point.
Its how immigration has always worked. But yes, it shows no respect for the people. However I often find people complaining out this mainly when it comes to POC in some way. May not be you OP, but it always undermines their argument imo
For me is not about moving without being near fluent or speaking language at all. You can learn, I did. I find annoying people living somewhere for years and refusing to learn, and acting offended you don’t understand them
I kind of agree. I mean, there are some fields, in a lot of countries, where you can come as an expat and a job that only requires english. But… you won’t be able to really integrate or even experience that country’s culture without the language, you’ll have problems with bureaucracy, you’ll be dependent on others who know the language, you’ll live in a bubble, etc. Honestly, not a great idea, unless you have no other choice.
One alternative is moving with an intermediate level and during the first few months, basically only do intensive leanguage courses there.
>I cannot fathom why anyone would think it is a good idea to move to a country where they don’t speak much of the language.
Because the country is cheaper than their own and they can live there just fine without needing to know much beyond the very basics of the local language.
You say they cannot integrate, but most of them really don’t want to. They live in retirement communities, socialize with each other, and in retirement areas there are services in their language.
Native Americans have entered the chat
Hmm I can’t say I agree that a person should necessarily be fluent at the point of moving, but I do think it’s helpful to know the basics with a desire to expand on them by immersion.
I do however agree with a mix of the comments you’ve received. I’ve recently quit work as a Social/Support Worker because too much of the job was just filling in basic forms for people who never committed to learning English at all well in the 10-15-20+ years they’ve been living here. I actually feel sad for them, I never said it TO them but it feels like quite a degrading life. Many of them are also sad and embarrassed about it, having to trust different people to open their personal letters, see their bank statements, basically nothing is private. I don’t know about anyone else but that would absolutely take a toll on my mental health…
If the country has an official language maybe but even then why do they even allow immigrants who don’t know it if you aren’t supposed to move there without knowing it? Plus it isn’t exactly unheard of for a country to move to your location regardless of if your language is the same as theirs.
We have Americans who aren’t fluent in English. And that’s their only language.
There really needs to be a universal language. One that is actually used.
Absolutely trash idea from someone who has never learnt another language properly before. Near fluent (C1) is a very high bar of non-native language. In fact, the majority of language learners will not reach that point, and it takes years. Life is fucking short, do you want people to waste years just to be near fluent before getting on a new page of their life? Most people can communicate in everyday life just fine with B1 or B2, even if they struggle a bit, language is just a tool.
Go learn a language before criticise other people.
Its often missed that a lot of people move for their children’s future more than their own. Integration and language proficiency isn’t the goal of someone 40 with children, it’s integration and language proficiency for their children.
It’s also incredibly difficult and time/resource intensive for someone already loaded with family and work responsibilities. If you’re 25 and unattached, yeah, you have no excuse, it’s about your life in the country. At 45, it’s 100% about your kids’ lives in that country.
People who don’t have the experience of sink-or-swim in a language in a foreign environment significantly underestimate the difficulty learning a new language later in life.
I don’t think this is that unpopular. If you asked “should Americans learn a country’s language in order to move there,” most people across the would say yes. There are many places that are difficult to navigate unless you know the language.
You’ve definitely never tried to learn a language lol. It’s very obvious.
Becoming fluent is not only very difficult… It requires fully immersing yourself in that language for years
I’ll give you a few seconds to try and figure out the best way to immerse yourself in a language for several years
100% agree.
This is a very big political topic across India, especially in the South.
And in real life:
You move to a country with a large diaspora of your people, and you only live and work within that circle and you never ever ever learn the language.
See Europe.for more.
It’s okay to move even if not fluent, but you should put the effort into becoming fluent in the next 1-2 years of moving there.
Tell that to the beer belly tattoo’d up Brits living in Spain.
Learning by immersion is one of the best ways to learn….
Narrow perspective and wrong. You got my upvote.
No one bats an eye if the person is from a western country. No western expat in Dubai learns Arabic, for instance.
Many expats in Sweden don’t learn the language either. Mine is also not very good. There is not much use for it, since everybody is very proficient in English. For many, it only helps them be hated less.
It’s not about knowing the language. It’s about willingness to learn the language, learn laws and respect them. Look at the African and Middle Eastern immigrants in Europe. Lots of them just refuse to learn language and/or laws. They require European countries to give them sharia and allow to speak their arabic dialects.
You can learn languages, you know. The best place to learn is in the country where the language is spoken.
I would question where you consider “fluency” or “near-fluency” to be as well. To my mind, very few fresh language graduates are anywhere close to fluent, certainly in languages they have only studied while at university.
Disagree, because being in the country is beneficial for learning the country‘s language. What I definitely do think though is that it should at least be required to speak it at B1-B2 level after 2 years of living there, and that includes refugees if they intend to stay.
Europeans understand that this isn’t how it works lol
If you want to move for the sake of moving then you legally must pass a language test to apply for a longer visa anyway
If you’re coming to work on a sponsored visa then it’s not your fault if you’ve been asked to work from a different country and you accept
It depends since ok, I can learn Deutsch in my country and by my own; however, I will reach a natural limit since lets face it, deutsch is not a really popular language in my country.
As someone who moved countries and only then learned the local language: no fucking way.
I moved to a country long before fluency, it was genuinely years before I got there and I was a university student and had a thriving social life before that.
I don’t think you understand what near fluency means.
You cannot achieve near fluency never mind fluency without living day to day in a country that uses it anyway.
Lmfao tell that to all the American “expats” (they’re immigrants) who show up across Latin America and make their own little colonies.
Or the English people who move to Spain.
I moved to Japan for a few years and was by no means absolutely fluent. It was great and took my rough Japanese to relatively fluent.
Without that time there I never would have become as fluent as I am today.
Not me moving to a country not knowing how to speak the language whatsoever. I immersed myself and learned the language quickly , within 2 years. Nowadays most people assume I’m native.
I think what matters when you move abroad is your willingness to assimilate and actually try. People shouldn’t move abroad if they aren’t going to give it a good go.
The best way to learn is being in the country, we’d never move with that logic
I don’t know about near fluent, but more than basic mastery should be a requirement
I’d accept passable. At the very least, you should make an earnest effort once you’re there. I’ve met people who have lived here 15 years plus and still don’t speak any English. It’s just disrespectful and lazy.
I first went to Poland with Erasmus, then to Turkey, then to Montenegro and again to Poland, being from Romania.
The language used in these mobilities was obviously English, would you have wanted me to learn all three languages in C2 level to be able to go?
Later on, I moved to Poland and found a job in English and with language requirements for Romanian. I am still here, doing my best to learn the polish language, but what you’re saying is nonsensical and obnoxious from a logical point of view because learning a language takes years, and the best way to learn it is to be there.
Should have I studied polish in Romania for 5 years and only then dare to move here?
After all, my English is quite decent, but I am struggling with British English, should I start learning that here if I plan to relocate?
Oh man it’s a situation rife with misunderstandings to happen.
We had someone refer to an HFM outbreak as several confirmed cases of foot and mouth disease which are very different issues and levels of concern.
Was fun.
but what if they offer you like ridiculous amounts of money?
i took the money. i worked hard to learn the language for 5 years. In the end, my language ability was that of a slightly profane four-year-old. maybe 3 year old.
But the social isolation sometimes killed my motivation to learn. And if your work doesn’t need you to speak to local language and people need you to do the work you do what’s the problem?
I recommend leaving the country ans learning another language. It’s hard to speak a language well, if you haven’t lived in a country that speaks it (said language).
Near fluent means C1. For me, not very skilled in language learning Eastern European girl, it took like 5 years to decent B2. And C1 is even worse, I’m not sure I’ll ever acquire it without living in an environment. Do you have a language learning experience up to C1?
I feel like the much better way to word your opinion is ‘integrate as fast as possible into the country you moved to’. But that’s also not unpopular.
Ah such a simplistic view of life. If your conditions changed just a bit, you easily understand why people move to countries where they may not have initial language fluency — and we’re not even talking about refugees.
Do you know damn hard it is to speak Vietnamese? I live here and can only just about order food and make a bit of Smalltalk. Still, that’s more than 90% of the ‘digital nomads’ that live here in sheltered neighbourhoods. At least I live in a local area and teach English at a local school, and I’m learning.
All I ask is you put in some effort to learn something. I’m not good at other languages, I’m not necessarily good at English. I get it’s a difficult process and understand when it’s just not clicking, but at least be able to carry out transactions and basic conversations. I feel really bad for immigrants in my neighborhood who can’t seem to get the hang of it, they are very dependent on others. I try to meet them halfway when I can to expedite things, but like I said, I’m not good at other languages.
You just need to be able to have basic conversations. Fluency comes with practice
If you can comunicate in english yoi can live almost anywhere in the world.
This is not an unpopular opinion. Literally everyone I know , agree with this
I used to work with a woman who had moved and lived in my country for 7 years and barely spoke English, and I mean barely. I just don’t understand that.
I also work in healthcare and it’s really frustrating when half the staff can barely understand each other. Communication is vital for taking care of these people and a language barrier makes it straight up dangerous.
I’m all for people moving and trying to build a life somewhere but there is no way I’d move to a country where I didn’t speak the language and try to start working a job where precise communication is vital.
There is a huuuuge difference between “near fluent” and “not speak much”
IMHO, you do not have to be near fluent. Before moving anywhere, you must make yourself aware of any upcoming language barriers and prepare yourself. Find out if you share any second language with the people, check whether it will be accepted to start out speaking english at the work place. Most importantly, prepare yourself by beginning to study the language and continue learning while there.
I find it very interesting when I see English speakers complain about foreigners not understanding English.
I don’t disagree with the post at all. But as a South African I just find it very funny.
The idea of not moving until you are fluent is deeply flawed…
You should move and then make efforts to learn.
You do understand that, without a doubt, the best way to learn a language is to go and live in the country in which it’s spoken?
I understand you should know the basics and make a constant effort to learn once you’re there, but knowing before you go there is ridiculous.
One of those ideas that are unpopular for a reason
Can’t wait for the Quebecoise to find this thread
Swedes wouldn’t be upset.
😂. I agree but that’s not the reality of it so I disagree with denying reality. I have lived in many countries where I don’t know the language so I can also saw that you haven’t travelled enough to make such a statement. If you have then tell me about your country and its position on your statement. Painful to you?! Many things should and shouldn’t be…
Yeah, but the best way to learn a target langue is to fully immerse yourself in it. I agree you should do as much study as you can before you move, but it’s difficult to become fluent just studying and watching movies & TV.
When I moved to Germany, I couldn’t speak German. Nowadays I can and I’m proud of myself.
For me the worst is not the language, it’s not respecting the culture. In Germany we have a lot of examples of people from another culture that comes here and doesn’t respect women and LGBT. I’m gay and I already suffered prejudice twice here and not once from German people
Especially if you are the shy, anxious and mentally unstable type. Learned it the hard way.
I moved to another country for work, with no knowledge of that language other than a couple of weeks of Duolingo.
Once there, I took lessons as soon as possible and got my B2 certificate after 2 years (so still not fluent, but functional). That’s even though the language at work is English and English is used constantly as the lingua franca here, so I could very easily have got by without learning another language.
It’s a language only spoken by 6 million or so people who are almost all fluent in English anyway, so there isn’t much material outside the country to learn from.
Do you think I shouldn’t have moved here?
I dunno. I tend to find it pretty brave (assuming legally and especially for family) to move to a place you can barely speak in order to give others a better life. I tend to befriend those people.
Unpopular opinion.
My first hand experience is that near fluency requires total immersion in the language and culture. If you don’t have such extensive experience you cant engage in the discourse and word play to be considered anywhere “near fluent”.
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I think you should at least be able to get around to start with. Think “I’m going to visit another country, and no one speaks English.” If you can manage that, it’s enough to start. You can’t really be fluent in a language without immersing yourself in it.
But then you get the stereotypical English retiree to Spain. Isolates himself in little English enclaves, only watches British TV via satellite, only reads the Daily Mail for news, and complains about “foreigners” who can’t speak English while not learning any Spanish himself. Will insist he’s not an immigrant, but an “ex-pat” as if he’s on some kind of extended holiday.
That’s easy to say when you are living comfortably in your native country. 99 percent of those people take huge risks and make great sacrifices, they are not stopped by the fact that they don’t speak English well. When you move to survive or for a better life they move with great hope. Their kids are gonna speak perfectly though
I agree.
I also work in healthcare and encounter people everyday that have lived in the U.S. for decades and still need the phone interpreter which is incredibly time consuming and doesn’t function well.
If I was dropped into Denmark tomorrow and told, “this is where you live now” I wouldn’t rest until I could passably speak Danish.
I hate sounding like a republican but it’s rude and gives, “I don’t care about this country or anyone living here and just want to use its resources to my advantage” energy.
I got banned from a sub for saying this lol. But youre absolutely correct. As a second generation refugee I hated having to answer the door every time someone came to it, or having to translate letters that came through the door or answer the phone because my dad didn’t know the language. It was so hard for me, I really struggled badly because I had to drop everything I was doing and work out what people were saying, and this id from the age of about 6. It sucked.
Not only that, but how do you expect to get a job and support yourself and your family if you can’t talk to anyone?
It’s basic common sense. I immigrated to Canada and live in Toronto even though it’s so much more expensive than, say, Montreal. But I can’t just move to Montreal or anywhere in Quebec because I know I’m never going to be fluent enough in French to thrive there.
As a child of immigrants myself (born and raised in an Arab country) I don’t speak my mother’s native language, and I have mediocre skills in my father’s language, so I’m English-first even though I’ll never be thought of as a native English speaker. Why would I compound the loss of identity by having my kids go to school in a French-first province? Because then my kids would think and feel more comfortable speaking in French, whereas my wife and I think and speak in English, and the grandparents speak 2 other languages.
I just don’t see the appeal. It’s setting yourself up with a handicap, and if you have kids it’s likely to result in another disconnect from their linguistic and cultural identity.
OP, it might be shocking to you, but the best way to gain fluency in a language is moving to a country that speaks it.
Do you also think, that you shouldn’t ever sit behind the wheel of a car, unless you know how to drive?
I think you should make an attempt at learning the language, but becoming near fluent isn’t always possible.
working as an interpreter, my job is created by this exact situation, people not thinking things through and going to USA for a better life, without bothering to speak the language or understand it.
Now for that part i dont care much, what bothers me most is they themselves cant talk the primary language either, they ask for spanish and start speaking in spanglish, gibberish or a mix of all 3
I would say no. A lot of languages can be difficult to learn if you dont practice them, and immersion is pretty much the best way for that.
What I would say is that you need to be willing to integrate with their society and adopt their values, instead of trying to preserve yours.
To be honest, exposure is one of the best ways to learn a language. Learning a language while in the new country isn’t bad. It’s people who have a condescending attitude to the new land they live in and the people they live with a and they refuse to learn anything about said place which is just insulting.
A perfect example are expats communities in Asian and African countries where the people can’t speak one word of the local language, yet still want to exploit the benefits of living there.
I personally think that you don’t need to know language when moving to a country but do need to learn it after you move there. After all, speaking with locals is best practice
> I always try learn at least how to say the pleasantries.
So did everyone else at the hospital you work at…pleasantries are nothing and nowhere near being fluent.
Where I’m moving English is used widely!
You shouldn’t even travel to other countries unless you fluently speak their language. They don’t want you there. Leave
My opinion is that you should not move to a country unless you’re willing to learn their language. You don’t have to be fluent when you get there, but at the very least be willing to learn to be.
I agree. Once I moved to a country without really knowing the language and it was a nightmare.
I’m not talking about people who move to the USA, but I will say that if I moved from the USA to someplace where they didn’t speak English, I would try to learn the language. Even if I was just visiting, I would at least pick up a few phrases.
What always bugs me is the double-standard aimed at Americans (and perhaps Canadians to a somewhat lesser extent).
In other words, if an immigrant comes to the US and refuses to learn English (I don’t even mean fluency, just some basic usage), and an American dares to negatively comment about this, he’ll be mocked, ridiculed, called intolerant, and you’ll probably hear the term “stupid American.”
Now if an American goes to another country and pulls that same stunt (i.e. not learning the language), he’ll once again be mocked and ridiculed.
Why does this double standard exist? Either it’s okay to not learn the language or you need to learn the language. Having a set of rules for immigrants to the US and a different set of rules for Americans immigrating to another country is BS.
The way I see it is if you’re going to live in a country that speaks a different language, you have to at least learn it well enough to get by. If you’re simply visiting, that’s different, but if you plan to live somewhere, it’s on you to learn the language, not the people who live there to coddle you.
And yes, I know the US doesn’t have an official language, but I don’t think it’d even matter if it did. Canada has two official languages (English and French), and we have a crap ton of immigrants who never bother to learn either.
Learning a language in a country where it is not commonly spoken takes time and effort. Sure it would be great if you can build up as much as a foundation as possible but it is not something realistic to expect. One of the best ways to learn is to fully immerse yourself in the culture and language of what you are trying to learn anyway.
A woman couldn’t even take an order at a restaurant because she didn’t know English. Nobody should be working a job in the US if they don’t know English. The entire restaurant got a bad review for their lack of foresight in hiring her.
Disagree – because language is culture and vice versa
After taking lessons for over 10 years, I’ve discovered the only true way to get ‘fluent’ is full immersion – ie being in the native country
That’s because culture plays a huge part in truly understanding a language
You can have decades of book skills, but if you don’t understand idiomatic, colloquial language, you’ll never have a holistic concept of real world application of the language, as opposed to grammatical ‘rules’, vocab lists, ‘meanings’ etc
An example that comes to mind is being in an ice cream shop and my friend who favours book learning insisting on ordering a ‘sphere’ of ice cream, instead of a ‘ball’. Needless to say the owner had no idea what he was talking about.
Agree, that you should definitely take some lessons before moving to a new country, but ‘fluency’ isn’t really a thing, until you actually start living in the country
For me it’s more an issue of having jobs where communication is super important. Doctors, vets, first responders, teachers etc. You have GOT to speak the language clearly.